Lost B-17 on 6 september 1943

[RSwank]

Max,

This link has some more information. Search for "5942".

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_1.html

42- 5942 (388th BG, 563rd BS, "Sky Shy/Wenatchee Special") shot down by Hptm Werner Schroer in Bf 109G-6 of JG 27/II Stab near Ulm, Germany Sep 6, 1943, Stuttgart, Germany. MACR 3121.
1 KIA, 1 died of injuries, 8 POW.

This link on Schroer would seem to have 42-5942 as his 86th plane shot down, E of Geislingen at 11:08.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/schroer.html

[Nokose]

Are you sure on the location? I looked at Tony Woods list which shows two pilots for the 9/NJG101 making claims that day.
Uffz Busch 11:28 vor Meesburg 700 m.
Uffz Konth 11:15 Fl.Pl. Grossefingen (I have no idea where that is)

[Thimmig]

Gentlemen! Abschussmeldung of the plane mentioned above found, will post translated transcript soon!

[Thimmig]

OK, gentlemen,
The B-17 I am searching for, and whose Abschussmeldung (the German victory report) I have found, was shot down at 11.00 on 6th september 1943 by a Bf 110 from III./NJG 101. It was attacked three times, at 6200 meters, from behind and below, after the first attack, the tail gunner did not fire back. The plane caught fire, white smoke with flames from both starboard (right) engines. The German pilot saw seven shutes.
The plane crashed east of Weiler bei Helfenstein at Geislingen and was found pretty intact, bellylanding according to the Abschussmeldung, and the pilot and radiooperator were found in the plane. Seven schutes and crew were found alive.
Now, any chance of finding the identity of this plane with this further info?

[Nokose]

The previous listed "Sky Shy" had two dead but one was MWIA and where buried at Geislingen. Two engines knocked out but lists flak and later hit by 20 mm shells which killed the engineer and radio operator died of wounds on the 7th.

B-17F (42-3289) "Wolfpack" 388 BG/562 BS pilot 1st Lt Edward A. Wick (POW)
"This a/c suffered fierce attacks by fighters between IP and target, losing one engine and damaging flight controls. With the loss of one engine and right wing on fire seven crew bailed out before a/c went into a spin and crashed on the east side of Dettingen an der Erms, about 7 miles north-east of Reutlingen, Germany, at 10:50 hrs. The R/O and ball turret gunner were killed in the a/c during fighter attacks. 3 KIA 7 POW." The 3rd member that was KIA was the tail gunner S/Sgt Rolland Allard.

Is the location of "Wolfpack" near Geislingen? If the pilot remained aboard he might have made a recovery, unless somehow it bellylanded on its on.

[Thimmig]

Well, could very well be the "Wolfpack" at least according to the fates of the crew and the time. Dettingen is 57 km from Geislingen. Will contact local historian in Geislingen and see if he might have some further info.

[Henry Jones]

Hello Thimmig,

I am a local historian from the near of Geislingen and I'm very interested in the WW2 war casualties here in the district of Goeppingen. Therefore I'm also interested in this plane crash. At the moment I'm waiting for the IDPF of Wiesner and Redmond for further details about their death.

Would it possible for you to send me a scan from Abschussmeldung? When I get the IDPF from the two KIA I can allocate it to you.

Best regards from Germany
Alex

[lucky-lindi]

Hello people.
Seeking After 1 year I found the only photo of the special wenatchee 42-5942 in the city archives. It shows the crash point in the hamlet above Helfenstein. The story of kill over this flight to Stuttgart on September 6, 1943rd . I will tell the real story in a better English in the next few weeks.
greetings from
southern Germany
lucky-lindi

september 8. 1943


today februar 2012

[lucky-lindi]

This is a factual report, based on verified sources only!!!




Monday, September the 6th, 1943: aeriel bombardement of Stuttgart!!! And the “Flying Fortress” with call sign “Wenatchee Special” has been shot down.




Background data:


Type: Boing B17 Flying Fortress
Serial ID: 42-5942
Call sign: Sky Shy, later: Wenatchee Special
Model: F-VE


Bombardment Group: BG 388, Sqdr 563
Missions flown: 6
First mission: July 30th, 1943
Last mission September 6th, 1943
MACR 3121


Manning: Bowen-Crew


Pilot: M. Bowen
Copilot: W. W. Woods
Navigator: A. E. Copeland
Radio operator: J. H. Redmond
Engineer: D. E. Wiesner
Bombardier: E. W. Hasson
Left waist gunner: A. H. Smith
right waist gunner: H. E. Richards
Tail gunner: J. Frankenfield
Ball turret gunner: T. J. Czygier










































Load list:


Bomb load: 10 x 500 £ M-43 G.P. bomb


Bombing hight: 6,200 meter
MG ammunition: 7,485 rounds
Position in group: Low squadron






Weather forecast: Bright, partly cloudy
Weather in Stuttgart: Dens, heavy clouds, overcast




The mission


Mission 19 : Bombardement of Robert Bosch AG and of railway infrastructure in Stuttgart.


About 150 bombers of type B17, escorted by 47 Thunderbolts and 112 Spitfires took part in that mission. The 94th bombardment group had 21 planes, the 96th group consisted of 21 planes, the 385th of 23 planes, and the 388th of 21 planes. Additionally 4 further bombardment groups joined.


The meeting point was the English Channel, where the aircrafts of the 8 groups gathered with about 15 to 20 planes each and got into formation.




It is September, 6th 1943 at 5:47 AM. In Knetishall (England) 21 B17 bomber of the 388th wing get airborne to join the the other wings targeting Stuttgart.


Echterdingen, place of german night fighter-wing NJG 101.


It was Monday morning 10:27 AM. Major Thimmig's aircraft and another aircraft of his section, which both were BF110's type G, are getting prepared for the nightly mission, when air raid warning was sounded in Stuttgart. Because the order for launching came very late, Major Thimmig had enemy contact during climb flight already, without the chance for his squadron to get into formation. Only his plane and another BF110 formed a section, but the second plane could not keep up with Thimmig because of its inferior speed capabilities.


At 10:44 AM the first bombs fell on Stuttgart, where because of overcast and the density of clouds over Stuttgart, the loss of the target-marking plane of the squadron (the squadron had only one of it at this time) and the heavy firing of the antiaircraft defense, the squadron had not found the target. So, after the second unsuccessful run the bomber squadron unloaded their bombs in trust to luck over Stuttgart ( Old Chancellery, Breitscheid Street, Falkert Street, Rosenberg Street, Schwab Street have been hit).


Unexperienced and due to intense antiaircraft defense, some of the bomber pilots could hardly follow their wing. At about 10:50 AM Major Thimming saw 8 groups of enemy aircrafts, each consisting of 15-20 planes of type Flying Fortress II, flying at an altitude of 6200 meter (approx. 20300 ft).


The first bomber group he saw was fairly pulled apart with two planes being even more behind. Immediately Thimming tried hard to reach a position to attack the hindmost plane of that group. But he could only slowly decrease his distance to that plane, because it made effort to catch up on its own group at high speed. When only 500-600 meters of distance was left between this enemy aircraft and its wing, Thiming saw himself in a position to attack and started the attack from downwards behind. After a number of bursts from a distance of 200 meter to 30 meter aiming the aircraft body and the engines, both of the right-side engines got on fire. The burning plane turned down and tried to escape heading for Switzerland (emigration country, frequently used as safe haven for aircrafts struggling with damages). Engineer and turret gunner S/Sgt. Wiesner has been killed by the attack.


The complete defense flak of the wing now concentrated on Thimming, so that his plane received some severe damages.


Major Thimmig and his navigator, master sergeant Steckemetz, now chased the burning plane, attacked it further two times over the city of Ulm, and pushed it away from its escape course. The Boeing as well as the BF 110 received further strikes. The pilot of the Flying Fortress, F./O. Bowen, realized the situation being futile, decided to abandon the plane and gave order to bail out. Because of flak strikes received over Stuttgart, the waist hatch, which was best designed for bailing out, could not be opened, so that the crew had to bail out using the emergency hatch in the rear of the aircraft.


Landing by parachute, Bowen suffered a broken foot, so that he spent 3 month in a hospital and after recovering, was transferred to STALAG III. The rest of the detained crew members were transferred to STALAG III immediately as prisoners of war. After the war, they were taken back home via Camp Lucky Strike / France.


At 10:25 AM: “Luftgefahr 15”: Air attack expected in 15 minutes
" 10:35 AM: Air raid warning sounded
" 11:21 AM: All-clear sounded


During the air raid, at 11:05 AM, amongst others 3 observation towers reported that an enemy aircraft was chased by a German fighter, that fired at it in the area of Einsingen. The aircraft crew bailed out within the airspace of Ulm. It has been stated, that in direction of Oberberghof 3, in direction of Blautal 3 and in direction of Einsingen 2 parachutes were descending. Deployed military police and German Armed Forces patrols were able to detain 8 persons (young Americans). The detained have been taken into custody. The damaged airplane itself crashed down near Stubersheim and has been completely damaged. Allegedly, in the aircraft still would be a dead body. [...]”


Town archive of Ulm: B140/Nr.001

Major Thimming, whose craft had to cope with heavy strikes, broke up the attack and concentrated on his trip back, where he belly landed on Echterding airfield at 11:04 AM.


S/Sgt. Redmond, who apparently had problems with his parachute, did NOT!!! leave the aircraft (at this point, as a result of my investigation, I am contrary to the MACR report). After his comrades had left the plane, he took the pilots seat and flew the still burning Flying Fortress from Ulm / valley of river Blau towards Stubersheim, Weiler ober Helfenstein. Referring to eye witnesses, he circled Weiler ober Helfenstein (a small number of farms) 2-3 times for finding an appropriate touch-down area and approached to land in an flat angle with the landing gear down. Doing this, he apparently overlooked a mound of two meters hight. The landing gear broke off, the craft hit the ground hard and slit over the meadow, where it broke to pieces. Due to this crash landing, S/Sgt. Redmond's head was thrown against the cockpit screen of the plane what caused him most severe head injuries (according to a contemporary witnesses, who also was pilot with the Gerrman Armed Forces, that landing was an aeronautical masterstroke).


Despite their fear of the still smoking wreckage, the local community members, like the farmer family, that lived just a few 100 meters away from the place of the disaster, hurried to the scene immediately, gave a first aid to the still alive, severely injured Redmond and recovered him from the wrecked cockpit. Redmond cried out loud for water all the time. The sister of the eye witness I talked to cared for the wounds and gave him something to drink. The doctor, who was called to the scene instantly, stated most severe head injuries and immediately induced S/Sgt. Redmond to be brought to the hospital of nearby Geislingen, where he died of his severe head injuries the next day.


(Referring to the hospital report Redmond suffered from a basal scull fracture, fracture of the jaw and most severe internal injuries. Their bleeding could not be stopped, despite an emergency surgery.)


S/Sgt. Wiesner's dead body, that lied in the plane during the crash-landing, has been thrown to the front of the plane, so that one had to cut open the fuselage to retrieve it (eye witness: “That was not a nice sight”).


Both soldiers were buried at Geislingen cemetery. After the war, they have been moved to a grave at home.


Because Remond piloted the Flying Fortress, Lt. Schick of the III./ night fighter-wing NJG101, 9. Squadron, who wrote the site survey report on Sept. 9th, 1943, thought that the two persons from the wreck were the official pilot and the radio operator and rendered it like said in the report.


I took over the time data from the report, therefore possibly may be differences.


Data from the shoot-down report:


Major Thimmig flew a BF110 Type G


with 4 MG 17 and 2 MG / MK 151/20


Used ammunition:


MG17 : 960 rounds Smkv, Bv, Pmkv
MG / Mk 151/20 : 2cm incendiary ammun., 2cm. incendiary tracer, 2cm. dimmed tracer, 2cm. armor piercing ammun..,2cm ??? [no more readable]


IMPORTANT!!! Internet and half-truth: What I have read from the Internet and in a book is not correct and should therefor be corrected:

• Flying ace Hpt. Schröer is said to have shot down the Wenatchee: I haven not found any single written document that provide evidence for that statement.
  
  
• The Wenatchee would have been shot down by ground based flak: This is rendered by the archive of bomber wing 388. I contrast this with the shoot-down report of Major Thimmig

• Local residents are said to have killed S/Sgt. Redmond. This is refuted by local contemporary witnesses. Additionally, there is a photography taken through the side screen of the crashed plane and showing a dark stain on the pilots side of the cockpit screen, made visible after digital processing of that image. This is evidence for the cockpit screen being blood smeared. This is also what my contemporary witness reported, before I even obtained the photography of the Wenatchee.
• Redmond would have got his head injuries from the horizontal tail when he bailed out: This is not possible, since he was recovered from the aircraft wreck and did not dive.

Here are some more facts pertainig Major Thimmig, S/Sgt. Redmond, S/Sgt. Wiesner




Major Thimmig















Born October 4th, 1912 in Dresden


Joined German Forces “Reichswehr” in Juli 1934


At Juli 1st Lieutenant of the Air Force “Luftwaffe”


Married since 1942


1937 started with the training wing “Lehrgeschwader” 1 as a BF 110 pilot and later as a group adjutant of the destroyer squadron of the wing.
Missions in Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France
On July 21st, 1940 he started his service for the night fighter wing 1 and was appointed leader of the 2nd squadron at airbase Venlo (Holland).
In February 1942 Wolfgang Thimmig was appointed captain and in June 1942 he was deployed as group commander for the III / NJG 1 at Twente (Holland). Thimmig was apointed major in spring of 1943. From June 1943 on, he started his service at III / NJG 101 in Stuttgart/Echterdingen as a group leader.
In October 1944 he was appointed 1st lieutenant and wing commander of the NJG 4 and has been deployed as wing commander of the NJG 2 shortly before the end of the war, where he stayed until then.


After the war he worked with several companies in Sweden.
In 1956 he joined the – at this time young - “Bundeswehr” (newly founded forces of the Federal Republic of Germany) and has been deployed as 1st military attaché in Sweden
He was decorated with the Svärds medal (high military decoration) in 1963.
From 1965 to 1967 Wolfgang Thimmig was leader of the GAFAG (German Air Force Assistance Group) in Nigeria and additionally was leader of the Nigerian air force for a short period of time.


Wolfgang Thimmig died on November 6th, 1976.


Decorations:

• Iron Cross of 2nd and 1st class
• Nachtjagdfliegerspanne in gold (decoration for night fighter pilots)
• German Cross (Deutsches Kreuz) in gold
• Trophy “Ehrenpokal der Luftwaffe” for 22 night victories and 2 day victories (one of the latter was the B-17 on September 6th, 1943)

Source: Max Thimmig




From the written decision of the recruiting board:




Name: Joseph H Redmond
Birth Year: 1926
Race: White, Citizen (White)
State of Residence: Massachusetts
County or City: Suffolk
Enlistment Date: 12 Aug 1942
Enlistment State: Massachusetts
Enlistment City: Boston
Branch: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Branch Code:Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Grade: PrivateGrade
Code: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source: Civil Life
Education: 2 years of high schoolCivil
Occupation: Waiters and waitresses, except private family
Marital Status: Separated, without dependents
Height: 68
Weight: 130




Name: David E Wiesner
Birth Year: 1920
Race: White, Citizen (White)
Nativity State or Country: New York
State of Residence: New York
County or City: Erie
Enlistment Date: 23 Jul 1942
Enlistment State: New York
Enlistment City: Buffalo
Branch: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Branch Code: Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Grade Code: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source: Civil Life
Education: 2 years of high school
Civil Occupation: Opticians, lens grinders, and polishers
Marital Status: Single, without dependents
Height: 67
Weight: 138






Should anybody have more information from verified sources, then please contact me!







References:
MaxThimmig
Stuttgarter Stadtarchiv (Town archive Stuttgart)
Fughafen Stuttgart / Echterdingen (Airport Stuttgart / Echterdingen)
Ulmer Stadtarchiv (Town archive Ulm)
Geislinger Stadtarchiv (Town archive Geislingen)
Militärarchiv Freiburg (Military archive Freiburg)
Archiv des Bombergeschwaders 388 (Archive of bomber wing 388)
Citizens of Weiler ober Helfenstein
MARC- Report 3121
Shoot-down report (Abschussbericht)
Combat report (Gefechtsbericht)
Air witness report (Luftzeugenbericht)
Site survey report (Anfassbericht)
Ground witness report (Bodenzeugenbericht)
Report of the observation tower guard of the air raid protection police of Ulm
Ancestry
War graves
etc.




Special thanks for the plenty of aid at doing this research to


Max Thimmig
Roland Swank
Hartmut Gruber
Jürgen Kuhnert
Dick Henggeler
Udo Keller
Dr. Vollmer
und many unnamed
contemporary witnesses


Author
Peter Lindenthal

[GrafWolf]

Hello Peter!

Thank you very much for sharing!

Herzliche Grüsse aus Oberschwaben,

Wolfgang