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Old 22nd October 2017, 15:53
ajcrou ajcrou is offline
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Loss Peter N. Murton-Neale (615 Sqn) - 13 May 1940

Hello,

I am looking for information concerning the loss of the Flying Officer Peter N. Murton-Neale, of No.615 Squadron, on 13 mai 1940. And more generally biographical details concerning him.

The ORB No.615 Squadron provides little information. Only that : "A patrol was ordered in the evening near Namur, form which F/O Murton-Neale did non return".

I found some more details in some books (CORNWELL, Peter D. The Battle of France, Then and Now and CULL, Brian ; LANDER, Bruce ; WEISS, Heinrich. Twelve Days in May.) : Flying Officer Murton-Neale (Hawker Hurricane Mk I L2035) crashed near Courrière. Believed claimed by Leutnant Marchfelder (Stab II./ZG 1).
Would anyone have more details on this claim and the activity of the Stab II./ZG 1 during this evening of 13 may 1940.

I have, moreover, managed to obtain a copy of Peter N. Murton-Neale - Casualty file (AIR 81/2100). The file includes a report of Pilot Officer John R. Lloyd, which brings some additional details :
- Murton-Neale Hurricane is indicated as : "P2580" and not L2035. I do not know if it's a mistake or not.
- Three Hawker Hurricane of No.615 Squadron take off (Squadron leader Joseph R. Kayll, Flying Officer Peter N. Murton-Neale) and a third not identified in the report) from Vitry-en-Artois.
- Several He.111 were encountered 5 miles west of Huy at 5 000 feet and escaped from the cloud.
- On emerging from the cloud at 17h45, Murton-Neale was not seen.

Would anybody have any additional details (especially on the German side) about the events that led to the loss of Flying Officer Murton-Neale.


Another question, would anyone have biographical information about this pilot (and ideally a photo of him).
I know he joined No.615 Squadron, late 1937 but no other details except the list of his flights (mentioned in the ORB) until the tragic event of 13 May 1940.

Thanks in advance,
Alexis
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Old 23rd October 2017, 14:10
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Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
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Re: Loss Peter N. Murton-Neale (615 Sqn) - 13 May 1940

Alexis,

I can offer you very little help I’m afraid. You are already well aware of the parlous state of the No.615 Squadron ORB so, in the absence of any reliable sources of information available at that time, details of the loss of MURTON-NEALE as published in my BoFrT&N (2007) were based entirely upon Brian CULL’s earlier work on the subject, Twelve Days In May (1995). His original sources are not known to me. CWGC records did at least confirm that MURTON-NEALE came down near Courrière, south-east of Namur, & it was documented that MARCHFELDER (plus two un-named pilots of II./ZG1) filed claim(s) for ‘Spitfire(s)’ on 13 May 1940 - but with no time nor location specified as far as I am aware. Significantly maybe, MARCHFELDER’s unpublished personal account ‘Pilots, Saints, & Sinners’ made no mention of the claim and in retrospect perhaps I should have given this more credence. One possible source of information on II./ZG1 would be the wartime publication Flieger-Ritter-Helden by Benno WUNDSHAMMER (1942) a war-reporter attached to the unit. Copies of this can still be found on the www.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 22:55
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Loss Peter N. Murton-Neale (615 Sqn) - 13 May 1940

Alexis/Peter

May I just state what Air Britain (through Jim Halley) says in the RAF Aircraft booklets.

L2035 17Sq/601Sq No further trace 13.5.1940; presumed lost in France.
P2580 615Sq Lost in France May 1940

At least some of these details must have been derived from the record cards.

We also know that during the dark days in France in 1940 lots of things did happen which neither found its way into the ORB and certainly not were entered on the record cards, so the details are not foolproof. However it is interesting that they support the accident file located by Alexis.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 24th October 2017, 08:06
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Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
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Re: Loss Peter N. Murton-Neale (615 Sqn) - 13 May 1940

Stig,

Thanks for that. I should have checked more thoroughly before duplicating errors. Also, would everyone please ignore my blunder in post #2 about WUNDSHAMMER's work. He was a war reporter embedded with II./ZG76 not II./ZG1. Clearly I'm rapidly 'losing the plot' and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near all these guns and heavy machinery. I really must arrange an increase in my daily dose of Malbec.
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Old 24th October 2017, 09:31
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Loss Peter N. Murton-Neale (615 Sqn) - 13 May 1940

Peter

I think most of us agree that you are exactly where we want you, deep into research of your favourite time period.
Since you also belong to those individuals I use call to one-man-miracles, I can't see any shadow fall on you because of indeed tiny, tiny mistakes. You are after all human, like the rest of us.

Having said that I can certainly find quite some merit in increasing the intake of the Malbec fluid. The Grape (especially in its refined form ) is one of God's gifts to mankind. However it should be enjoyed when in a positive mode....

Cheers
Stig
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Old 24th October 2017, 09:51
ClinA-78 ClinA-78 is offline
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Re: Loss Peter N. Murton-Neale (615 Sqn) - 13 May 1940

I remember the crashsite of his Hurricane is shown in a "Bataille aérienne" dedicated to Hurricane ops in May '40 by fellow J-L Roba.

ClinA-78
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Old 26th October 2017, 11:22
ajcrou ajcrou is offline
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Re: Loss Peter N. Murton-Neale (615 Sqn) - 13 May 1940

Hello,

Sorry for my late response, I am not at home and my internet access is very poor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
May I just state what Air Britain (through Jim Halley) says in the RAF Aircraft booklets.
L2035 17Sq/601Sq No further trace 13.5.1940; presumed lost in France.
P2580 615Sq Lost in France May 1940
Thank you for this information, which seems to confirm the identification of the Hurricane, as P2580.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Cornwell View Post
details of the loss of MURTON-NEALE as published in my BoFrT&N (2007) were based entirely upon Brian CULL’s earlier work on the subject, Twelve Days In May (1995). His original sources are not known to me. CWGC records did at least confirm that MURTON-NEALE came down near Courrière, south-east of Namur, & it was documented that MARCHFELDER (plus two un-named pilots of II./ZG1) filed claim(s) for ‘Spitfire(s)’ on 13 May 1940 - but with no time nor location specified as far as I am aware. Significantly maybe, MARCHFELDER’s unpublished personal account ‘Pilots, Saints, & Sinners’ made no mention of the claim and in retrospect perhaps I should have given this more credence.
Thank you for the clarification. Indeed, I had difficulty tracing another source (other than Brian Cull's book) related to this claim. It is true that my documentation on the Luftwaffe, and more specifically the Bf 110, is limited. I mainly use the book : Zerstorer: Messerschmitt 110 and Its Units in 1940.
And, I was curious to know if there were other sources confirming this hypothesis or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ClinA-78 View Post
I remember the crashsite of his Hurricane is shown in a "Bataille aérienne" dedicated to Hurricane ops in May '40 by fellow J-L Roba.
Yes, there is a photograph of the probable Hawker Hurricane of Murton-Neale. Available online here (photo in the right column, first page) : http://www.avions-bateaux.com/upload...739dd678bc.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
We also know that during the dark days in France in 1940 lots of things did happen which neither found its way into the ORB and certainly not were entered on the record cards, so the details are not foolproof.
Indeed, I try for a few months to reconstruct the activity of No.615 Squadron during the fighting in May 1940, quite complicated given the limited documentation available.
But, unfortunately, each new information (for me) brings more questions / questions than answers.


Thanks,
Alexis
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