New Stuka book

[Jukka Juutinen]

Thanks Franek, though I will still disagree on pro scanning (which requires printing house quality scanner plus professional personnel)! You pointed out some aspects that I failed to point out. As for lacking technical material on the Hs 129, I find it very suspect. After all, we have a 200-page very detailed monograph on the Do 335. We have books that detail in minutest detail the Me 262 or the Me 163. Now, there is no detailed tech data for an aircraft type that saw service for far longer than these 3 combined?

[Dénes Bernád]

Remember, Jukka, Henschel Flugzeug-Werke was located at Berlin-Johannisthal. After the end of the war, the Red Army took over the property, dismantled the factory - back then one of the most modern aircraft production plants in Europe - and took it back to the USSR. Most documentation is probably lying somewhere in a Russian archive, way beyond my possibilities - if it still exists, of course.

[Christer Bergström]

Henschel Flugzeug-Werke was located at Berlin-Johannisthal. After the end of the war, the Red Army took over the property, dismantled the factory - back then one of the most modern aircraft production plants in Europe - and took it back to the USSR. Most documentation is probably lying somewhere in a Russian archive, way beyond my possibilities - if it still exists, of course.

Dénes, hold your breath. I think that now we will find out where to find that material!

Dear Franek, as you know, I am very interested in the technical aspects.

First of all, Martin Pegg's book contains very much technical information, and goes quite deeply into technical descriptions. The topic of this discussion is not whether certain people are interested in technical details or not; the issue is whether Pegg's book contains technical descriptions which are satisfactory. I can say that Pegg's book contains even more than one could expect in that regard.

However, Jukka made a list of absolutely ridiculous demands. Or, I'd rather say - it was apprehended as ridiculous until you came in. Now since you came in to support Jukka's specific demands, I'm sure that you (contrary to Jukka in this case) know what you are talking about.

Since you support Jukka's specific demands, maybe you can list ten other Luftwaffe aircraft history books which give all of what Jukka specifically demanded should be in a Luftwaffe aircraft monography (plus, of course, all the kind of technical details which Martin Pegg gives in his book). Here are the technical details which Jukka claims "must" be included in any Luftwaffe aircraft book:

* armor specs (i.e. hardness, strength, chemical composition)
* performance curves
* detailed drawings on construction features
* handling reports (e.g. from Rechlin)
* production line photos showing various stages of assembly

I'm looking forward to that list with great anticipation. I wonder how I could have missed Luftwaffe aircraft monographies which go that much into detail!

Then please tell us exactly where all the information above for the Hs 129 can be found - where to go for Dénes and many other among us would love to see that missing material! Do you have the names of the contact persons at those places where all that material can be obtained?

While you are working on that, please also list five or six books where I can find comparative performance curves for different Me 109 aircraft individuals (i.e. different aircraft of the same production type, like e.g. the F-4) at various stages of engine wear and at various weight stages (full tank, full loaded, half full tank, etc); also with cirves for various degrees of polishing, and some comparative performance curves for various degrees of pilot skills regarding trim, propeller pitch etc. Those performance curves will tell the reality - contrary to the clean test flight performance curves, which give us no span but only are fairly clinical. Please list a few books where those "must" performance curves can be found for the Me 109 F-4.

Jukka failed to provide us with any of that information, thus revealing that he was only babbling about things he knows nothing about, revealing that all he wanted was to get a cheap shot at a well-versed writer who has made Jukka jealous. But since you entered the discussion after that was revealed, I'm sure that you - contrary to Jukka - know where to find such material. I'm sure many here are looking forward to your reply.

BTW, Franek, you'll find your name in the acknowledgment section in my forthcoming biography on Hans-Ekkehard Bob, which will be published next year. That for the info on Polish aviation which you so kindly helped me with.

[Franek Grabowski]

Denes
You clearly wrote that nothing survived but now claim taht you have not checked. Apart of Soviet, there are British and US archives that may hold technical details of Hs 129 plus captured manuals, etc.
I bet there are competent engineers who will make throughrough analysis of the design provided with some data. As I have noted, performance can be calculated if no reports survived.
By the way, I think one of the best monographies I have ever seen is Rastrenin/Perov's mono of Il-2. Sadly for Russian readers only.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Christer Bergström

* armor specs (i.e. hardness, strength, chemical composition)
* performance curves
* detailed drawings on construction features
* handling reports (e.g. from Rechlin)
* production line photos showing various stages of assembly

I'm looking forward to that list with great anticipation. I wonder how I could have missed Luftwaffe aircraft monographies which go that much into detail!

A list provided by Jukka are really basic demands. I wonder how aircraft monography can miss such 'details'.

Then please tell us exactly where all the information above for the Hs 129 can be found - where to go for Dénes and many other among us would love to see that missing material! Do you have the names of the contact persons at those places where all that material can be obtained?

I have never looked for Hs 129, so I cannot tell where the stuff is exactly. Nonetheless, a look into Phil Buttler's War Prizes should reveal histories of individual captured airframes and establishments that tested them. This will provide a list of archives that must be asked for. My best bet will be NA, Kew, Richmond; RAE Farnborough; NARA; etc.

While you are working on that, please also list five or six books where I can find comparative performance curves for different Me 109 aircraft individuals (i.e. different aircraft of the same production type, like e.g. the F-4) at various stages of engine wear and at various weight stages (full tank, full loaded, half full tank, etc); also with cirves for various degrees of polishing, and some comparative performance curves for various degrees of pilot skills regarding trim, propeller pitch etc. Those performance curves will tell the reality - contrary to the clean test flight performance curves, which give us no span but only are fairly clinical. Please list a few books where those "must" performance curves can be found for the Me 109 F-4.

I know of such performance data aurviving for Spitfires for example. Influence of rivets, wear or equipment like mirrors was carefully checked. I cannot say if such detailed data is avialable for Me 109F-4 or any other German aircraft but there is really no problem to get performance curves. I have got both German and British ones for Me 109F-2.
The fact that I have got neither of them from the books is not a proof that those data are not important but that those books are crappy.
Those reports may be sourced in archives mentioned above.

BTW, Franek, you'll find your name in the acknowledgment section in my forthcoming biography on Hans-Ekkehard Bob, which will be published next year. That for the info on Polish aviation which you so kindly helped me with.

Is there Ruy for providing a medium for those informations?

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Denes
You clearly wrote that nothing survived but now claim taht you have not checked.

Franek, I clearly wrote something else:

Most of the Hs 129's technical details Jukka et al. are looking for are simply not available(...)

There is a marked difference between 'nothing survived' and 'not being available'.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Christer Bergström

Dénes, hold your breath. I think that now we will find out where to find that material!

Christer, it' already past three minutes since I started to hold my breath, as you suggested, and I am really suffocating now. How much longer should I wait?

[Franek Grabowski]

Denes
Full quote is.

Most of the Hs 129's technical details Jukka et al. are looking for are simply not available any more.

I understand this that they were destroyed. I would like to ask you, which archives have you consulted if they have any technical Hs 129 related documents?

[Dénes Bernád]

Thanks for the full quote. It doesn't change anything of what I pointed out earlier, though. There is a marked difference between 'nothing survived' and 'not being available'.

If you really want to find out which archives I've contacted or researched, contact me via PM.

[John Manrho]

Please guys.....let it be! You all did not move an inch in either's direction the last 40 replies and this thread doesn't lead to anything. I am convinced a lot of viewers stopped reading this thread. Spare your efforts and contribute to other threads which I have seen all of you can do very well....!!! With the highest regard but now a little bit bored....John Manrho.