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  #261  
Old 3rd December 2021, 18:06
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Sad, but not surprising. In the past several decades many people were surfing on the waves of Hartmann's '352' - without checking any facts. When I see this number, I cannot read on either... (I mean the claims might be correct, since they were filed indeed, but their actual contents, ie. the victories are only in fragments - and the two are absolutely not the same!)

Gabor
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  #262  
Old 3rd December 2021, 23:05
keith A keith A is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Definitely a purchase for me next year Gabor, well done to you and your co-author. Long overdue and very much anticipated

best regards

Keith
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  #263  
Old 3rd December 2021, 23:26
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Thank you Keith, we hope it will meet your expectations.
Gabor
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  #264  
Old 6th December 2021, 17:37
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet palnes were downed in 1939...

"Answer is simple: because the Soviets did not report everything. Polish Campaign 1939 is a good example: some Soviet planes were downed by Polish fighters. Some of the Soviet aircrews were captured and interrogated but there is no trace in Soviet documents".

I know three such incidents. I wrote about them in detail in my 2008 book on the subject, "Red Stars - an Ally of Black Crosses over Poland", Warsaw 2008. One of these cases is very debatable. The Polish pilot wrote in the documents that he had fought in the air and shot down the "R-5", and years later he wrote in his memoirs that he did not shoot this Soviet plane, but flew around it and did not fire. There are documents - his manual report from 1939, and there are memoirs published years later. Who to believe now? The same person - pilot and diffferent time and place.

In the case of their losses, the Russians did not hide it at all, when they had losses, they would list them in documents; there is only a question of why the loss occurs. It was similar with Germany in 1939 or later. Such cases during the Second World War were not uncommon, the pilots said one thing, and then completely different turned out.

It is much easier and simpler to write: the Russians did not write in the report, the Russians are hiding. It's a regular mambo jumbo.

The plane is too expensive and the pilot and crew are also not ghosts to disappear from official military documentation. There is no such option, the military is a bureaucracy.

Staff - military bureaucracy - must love papers, i.e. writing reports, this is their basis of existence, production of reports, orders, etc.

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  #265  
Old 6th December 2021, 17:59
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

I, too am looking forward to purchasing your book, Gabor. I have noted in recent years that many of the new books on WWII are rehashes of prior knowledge. Books that reflect "new" [old knowledge previously unknown] and in-depth research are a joy to find.
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  #266  
Old 6th December 2021, 19:19
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Even if it is great fun, worrying about the scores of aces is irrelevant and a fallacy.

It does not matter in the slightest whether Herr X shot down 9 or whether the ninth one force landed and was repaired within 24 hours; he only should be credited with 8 and therefore he is a blaggard for his false claiming

Aces' claims are only that, claims. Some are true and some mistaken and some fraudulent. They do not really matter, other than to the ego and reputation of the person in question

However what does matter in regards to winning a war is can the fighters on one side establish and maintain air superiority to such an extent that the other side cannot function and is thereby prevented from exerting its will on the battlefield or in producing war material.

It does not matter if one side claimed 1000 shot down, it is just a claim and an indication of how successful they feel they have been (rightly or wrongly).
What matters is did they collectively move in a positive direction toward achieving and maintaining air superiority.

There I said it, just waiting for the bolt of lightning and the ground to open up beneath my feet.
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  #267  
Old 6th December 2021, 19:44
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Quote:
Originally Posted by MW Giles View Post
It does not matter if one side claimed 1000 shot down, it is just a claim and an indication of how successful they feel they have been (rightly or wrongly).
What matters is did they collectively move in a positive direction toward achieving and maintaining air superiority.

There I said it, just waiting for the bolt of lightning and the ground to open up beneath my feet.
I'd argue that it matters for the researcher/historian to try and work out what actually happened. League tables don't interest me in the slightest and my perspective on Hartmann is that even if he "only" shot down (say) 70 aircraft, he was still a massively successful fighter pilot.
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  #268  
Old 6th December 2021, 20:01
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi folks,
Believe it or not, the last 5 or so posts I believe are all correct!


@Keith and @kaki3152, I appreciate these comments! Helps us see the light at the end of the tunnel a bit better


@Mirek Wawrzyński: 'In the case of their losses, the Russians did not hide it at all, when they had losses, they would list them in documents' <- exactly! There is a lot of information written at different levels (regiment, division, Air Army...) all describing these losses.


@MW Giles: 'Aces' claims are only that, claims. Some are true and some mistaken and some fraudulent.' <- exactly! Claims and victories are two separate things, and both are important. It must be kept in mind that they represent two different, though related, things. Confusing the two leads to a twisting of history.


@Nick Beale: '...it matters for the researcher/historian to try and work out what actually happened... even if he "only" shot down (say) 70 aircraft, he was still a massively successful fighter pilot.' <- exactly! For historical purposes it may be deemed important, less so otherwise. And if I remember correctly 70>0, so even this is an accomplishment!


Gabor
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  #269  
Old 11th December 2021, 06:30
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

From the research of Nikita Egorov is found these two claims for Lt Erich Hartmann 7/JG 52.

10 Feb 43 Boston (4) 06:15 PlQu. 86 671 at 3200 m
“Four more Bostons claimed by II/JG 52 and III/JG 52 at Kuban on this day. The departure time of the crew is only suitable for Hartmann’s claim. Since there are no circumstances, then in most cases to find Hartmann’s opposition, the hypothetical option.”

Boston B-3 63 BAP St. S-t. Andrey Smolyar and crew listed as MIA

15 Aug 43 LaGG (78). 18:10 PlQu 70 762 at 3000 m
17:55 - 19:20 Moscow) 5 GIAP La-5 # 3810123 flown by Ml. Lt. Samoylenko did not return from the area of Sukhaya Kamenka. The fughter was wrecked in a forced landing in the area of Kun’e. Pilot returned to his unit on the 16th.
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  #270  
Old 11th December 2021, 12:31
BenFolk BenFolk is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi

My interest in aviation is just my hobby, so I don't have that much good information. Like many, I believed that the German pilots exaggerated in their reports.
However, the facts show otherwise.
For example;
II./JG 52 was an opponent of 4 VA in February 1944, in PQ 66… and reported over 70 e / a kills that month.
The Russians admit that they lost 15 planes in air combat, 3 never returned from combat missions, and 3 were shot down by a German flak.
In addition, you need to add 2 planes lost in a failure during a combat flight - only 23 planes in total. So the Germans overestimated their successes four times. However, if we add the planes that made the forced landings - 21 planes (13 came back to the units by the end of February), we already have 44 planes that the German pilots might consider having been shot down. Now we are standing 2 to 1. It's not over yet. As many as 47 planes had to be sent to repair shops, which were badly damaged and could not be repaired on site in units - replacement of motors was performed on site in their units and other light repairs.
In March 1944, reported 4 VA combat loss - 22 aircraft (13 in air combat and 9 by Flak). 7 had to land forcibly and by the end of month 5 had returned to units. 40 aircraft were delivered to repair shops. Total 69 aircraft.
A few months earlier, in December 1943, 4 VA reported a combat loss - 80 aircraft (41 in air combat and 39 from Flaku), 16 aircraft did not return from combat tasks. 115 aircraft forcibly landed in the field - 47 of them returned to units by the end of the month. 82 planes went to repair shops.
It didn't get any better after that. In August 1944, 4 VAs lost 42 aircraft in aerial combat and 51 in anti-aircraft guns. 23 did not return from combat missions and 21 were forcibly fielded (11 returned by the end of the month), 71 aircraft went to repair shops.
It was not better in repairing damaged planes. Squadron mechanics 178 GvIAP st.ltn Simonov restore during May 1943 - May 1945 89 aircraft damaged in air combat and did 295 small and current repairs. The mechanics of another squadron 178 GvIAP in the time of 04.43-05.45 they renovated and restore 99 aircraft damaged in aerial combat.
It is a pity that other airline unions did not report at least their losses as 4 VA, then we could better say if the reports coincided with the events in the air.

Greetings and Merry Christmas
BenFolk
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