The 501°Sqd on 04/25/1942

[focusfocus]

Hello

Five lost(one cat.B)

I have contradictory information concerning the place where they were lost:

into Channel during Circus No.137 "Abbeville"
over Cherbourg
off Morlaix

What is the correct version?
Michel

[RSwank]

From the 501 Squadron Record of Events for 25/4/1942

“Sweep to Cherbourg. 11 a/c took off, only 6 returned. (5 planes took off at 15:30 and 6 at 15:35). FO Palmer-Tomkinson, F/O Wheldon were missing. Sgt. Rocovsky (Miroslav Rocovski, Czech) was seen to bale out off Cherbourg but his parachute was not seen to open, and Sgt. Vrtis (Karel Urtis, Czech) was seen to go into the sea. (Urtis was in the 2nd group of planes to take off, the other casualties were in the first group.) Sgt. Blair force-landed near Swanage (an entry on the previous page says he crash landed at Worth Matravers) owing to engine trouble and was injured.”

“This heavy casualty list of experienced pilots was the result of an encounter with 6 ME109F’s which made the most of mist and cloud cover to make tip and run attacks.”

An earlier post on some of this:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-37848.html

The four missing:

Urtis: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...5/karel-urtis/

Parker-Tomkinson: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...mer-tomkinson/

Rocovski: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...slav-rocovski/

Wheldon: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...obert-wheldon/

A little on Ian Blair: https://www.militarygallery.co.uk/si...?Signature=370

[MW Giles]

They definitely were not on Circus 137 to Abbeville unless they got exceedingly lost

In the morning they were on 10 Group Circus 4 to Cherbourg and in the afternoon on 10 Group Circus 3 to Morlaix. It was on the second operation that the losses occurred.

[focusfocus]

OK it's clear!
Thank you

Michel

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by MW Giles

They definitely were not on Circus 137 to Abbeville unless they got exceedingly lost

In the morning they were on 10 Group Circus 4 to Cherbourg and in the afternoon on 10 Group Circus 3 to Morlaix. It was on the second operation that the losses occurred.

According to John Foreman 501 Sq was on a diversion mission during Circus 137. He does not
mention Circus No 3 at all.

On a point of interest, was 10 Group incapable of counting?
Why send Circus 4 in the morning and Circus 3 in the afternoon?
Fooling the Luftwaffe or themselves??

Cheers
Stig

[MW Giles]

Stig

If you think that the numbering of Circus operations is always consistent and in numerical order you are in for major disappointment

10 Group Circus C-2 was on the 17.04.42
10 Group Circus C-3 was on the 25.04.42 but the 6 bombers from 226 Sqn heading for Morlaix turned back and the fighters turned the operation into a sweep
10 Group Circus C-4 was on the 25.04.42

Mr Forman does not even get the identities of the 10 Group squadrons he says were on the diversion correct

Oh well, you pay your money, you take your choice

Martin

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by MW Giles

Stig

Oh well, you pay your money, you take your choice

Martin

I suppose I do Martin

A lot cheaper than trying to learn/pay things from stage A and maybe never be a "top ace" anyway....

Still no explanation why 10 Group was not capable of counting in your answer,
Disappointment? Maybe, since I learned to count at least to 10 before I was four....

Instead of just saying Foreman is wrong, perhaps you can enlighten us where he went wrong and
what your correct findings are?

Cheers
Stig

[MW Giles]

Hi Stig

We will just have to disagree.

Please believe Foreman if that makes you happy.

All the best

Martin

[Stig Jarlevik]

Sorry you are taking it that way Martin

I am not saying I believe what Foreman is saying, but that is all I got at the moment.

Perhaps our humor differ, with regard to "counting ability" but I can't see any reason why you can't state
where Foreman went wrong and give all of us your side of the story?

Cheers
Stig

[MW Giles]

Sorry, as I get older I get more and more averse to arguments on-line that take ages and do not go anywhere.

This is a brief summary. I do have more stuff, but not the time to put it down.


A) Tony Woods – Allied 1942

25.4.42
RAF 10 Group Circus 3
Viaduct MORLAIX
16.30 Z: 6 Boston III (Abandoned due weather)

Escort Wing: Ibsley
RAF 10 Gp. 118 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 15.40 17.05 Circus 3 0 1 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Morlaix

Claim 25.04.42 Pilot 10 Group 118 Sqn. 0 - 1 - 0 Me 109F off Morlaix

RAF 10 Gp. 501 Sqn. 11 Spitfire Vb 15.40 16.58 Circus 3 0 - 0 - 0 - 4 Cat.Em 1 Cat.B Fighters L-BS: Morlaix

Cat.Em 25.04.42 F/O A. Palmer Tomkinson: KIA 10 Group 118 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: W3894 JG 2: off Morlaix
Cat.Em 25.04.42 F/O R. Wheldon: KIA 10 Group 118 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: BL974 JG 2: off Morlaix
Cat.Em 25.04.42 Sgt. J.M. Rocovsky: KIA 10 Group 118 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: W3840 JG 2: off Morlaix
Cat.Em 25.04.42 Sgt. K. Vrtis: KIA 10 Group 118 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: AB251 JG 2: off Morlaix
Cat.B 25.04.42 Sgt. I. Blair: WIA 10 Group 118 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: AB179 JG 2: off Morlaix


B) AIR 16/1307 RAF/FC Summary of Sorties is a good source


C) 2 Group RAF – A Complete History 1936-45, MJF Bowyer, Faber 1974 (Appendix 9 – Principal Operations flown by Boston Squadrons 1942)

April 25

R-26 6/226 Dunkirk docks
R-28 12/88 Shipping – Le Havre
10 Grp C-3 6/226 Morlaix airfield; abortive
10 Grp C-4 6/107 Cherbourg
C-137 6/107 Abbeville m.yds


D) Circus C-2 was on 17.04.42, there are no raids in 10 Group area by bombers or fighter bombers where C-3 could have happened until 25.04.42 (circumstantial)

E) 226 Sqn ORB – confirms that 6 a/c sent on Circus to Morlaix on 25.04.42 but turned back (Circus is unnamed)

F) On the 25.04.42 C-137, C-4, R-26, R-27 (Hurribombers so not mentioned by Bowyer) and R-28 all involved bombers and all got fighter escorts of various sizes, including C-4 to Cherbourg.

6 Bostons of 226 Sqn go to Morlaix in the afternoon on their own? Conclude that they did have fighter escort and when they turned back the fighters carried on in a sweep. This is mentioned in an ORB but cannot find which one at the moment

G) Foreman Air War 1942 lists 118, 234 and 501 Sqns on Diversion for Circus-137, it appears he has not checked this is so. It was so on 24.04.42 but not on 25.04.42

For the late pm of 25.04.42

The 118 Sqn ORB says did a Wing Sweep – Barfleur to Cherbourg and 402 Sqn substituted for the normal 234 Sqn in the Wing
The 234 Sqn ORB says on the 25th April that they flew convoy patrols, a scramble and ASR sorties that day (confirms 118 Sqn account)
The 501 Sqn ORB says they went on sweep to Cherbourg
The 402 Sqn ORB says they went on sweep over Cherbourg

The 308 Sqn ORB says they took off to escort bombers returning from Cherbourg.

226 Sqn are the only bombers fitting the bill in that bit of the world in late afternoon 25.04.42

H) 107 Sqn on C-137 took off at 15:22 hrs and RV with escort at 16:30 to head for Abbeville, by which time 221 fighters as escort are going to be fairly obvious on German radar

226 Sqn on C-3 set off for Morlaix at 16:09 hrs from Exeter with three squadrons as escort. How much of a diversion are they going to be, apart for JG2 in the SW. The timing does not really get a large German reaction who then land and get hit by the real raid, or pull fighters away from the Abbeville area. It may stop or delay JG2 appearing over Abbeville, but fighter controllers are going to see a big difference in size of two raids about the same time.

So that is where I am coming from.

226 Sqn definitely went on an abortive Circus. There is evidence it was 10 Grp C-3

If 10 Grp C-3 was a diversion for C-137 OK, but that does not negate C-3’s existence.11 Group numbering tends to dominate the “lesser” Groups around it, firstly because it is bigger and did the majority of Circuses and Ramrods and secondly because authors tend not to look further than the 11 Group ORB appendices

Martin