Total Flak or AA units claims in WW2

[Adriano Baumgartner]

This is a silly question, but I remember reading an "estimated total of claims" somewhere but can not find...do not remember if it was on Cajus Bekker's book.

Does someone knows the "total claims approved for LW Flak units" in ww2?

I have seen some of the Flak Claims (Abschüssmeldung) held at BAMA and scanned in PDF and some are really precise and incredibly well written, with testimonies, scatches, number of shells used, etc.

I therefore assume that an "Official TOTAL number" for LW Flak claims may exist somewhere...Is this NUMBER KNOWN? (10K, 12K, 7K?)

Thanks in advance for any direction

Adriano

[edwest2]

Adriano,

Here is a previous discussion of this subject:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=15659

[Larry deZeng]

Adriano,

Ed's link just about says it all. Comprehensive research of the Flakwaffe would be a monumental undertaking for a team much less one individual, and that would be just for the Luftwaffen-Flakartillerie. I gave it a go and worked on it until I realized I didn't have enough years left to have any hope of finishing it or even getting halfway.

In addition to Ed's link, here is another that will be needed by any potential researchers into this massive subject.

31 May 2022:
See these links for absolutely the most comprehensive bibliography for the Flakartillerie ever compiled - the author is Simon Trew:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...797#post319797

22 Jun 2022:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...1ac91#p2415738

Bear in mind that the Flakwaffe consisted of approx. 35% of the entire strength of the Luftwaffe, and that's why its research is important:

Iststärke of the Luftwaffe – Stand 1.6.1944:
(Uniformed male military only – no civilians, females or auxiliaries)
Fliegertruppe (including Bodenpersonal) 610,000
Flaktruppen 655,000
All Other 635,000
Luftnachrichtentruppen
Fallschirmjägertruppen (80,000)
Lw.-Pioniertruppen
Lw.-Sanitätstruppen
Luftschutzentruppen
Lw.-Landesschützentruppen
Total Iststärke: 1,900,000
[Source: NARA WashDC: RG 242/Microcopy T-78 roll 411]

L. deZ.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Ed and Larry,

Thank you for your answers and quite impressive threads.

I thought that maybe somewhere, we would have an estimated number of claims...it seems this is not the case....But, as discussed, this is surely an open field yet to be discovered, in terms of Historical researches.

The final or total number may be very very high indeed, when one read books about the Normany Campaign (2nd TAF, Typhoon and P-47 units, for instance), Market Garden, etc...if you include the Whermacht Flak units and Kriegsmarine Flak units, this may rise quite considerably too. We also do find individual and local references to Flak claims on War Diaries (written by former pilots and airmen) and, of course, the ORB of Squadrons.

The Germans being so sistematics with statistics, it is a pitty that no document with this information seems to have survived the war. From what I read on the threads you posted, one will have to dig out, individually per Flak Gruppe or major unit, each claim and maybe summarize everything later. A huge task indeed for a Historian or a couple of Historians.

I thought that maybe a final number had arisen from post-war interview of captured High rank Officers (Generals) or from ULTRA.

I do remember an interesting case of one of those interviews, related to me directly via Herr Martin Drewes in 1996, about being interviewed by a RAF Officer fluent in German language, saying that HIS claims and that of the Nachtjagdwaffe were fake claims...Major Martin Drewes than said to him to check how many 4-engined bombers were missing on the inventory of the Royal Air Force....which cost him 4 years interned as a POW in Britain....So maybe a similar "interview" of POW or ULTRA material, perhaps have the clue or answer to a total estimate of the Flak Claims (I hope so and hope this number will arise some day for the benefit of the Aviation Community).

THAK YOU again for kind answer and help.

Adriano

A BIG thank you anyway....for giving me a true North.

[Nick Beale]

There's this book that may help: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Flak-Anti-a.../dp/0700614206

It's a long time since I read it so I don't remember if it gave the totals you're after. I do however remember that he seemed to think the Flak was underrated (had he never read any pilots' memoirs?) and his constant repetition of the phrase "the German ground-based air defences"!

[Larry deZeng]

Adriano -

See Post #8 here:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=15659

But note that the figure given is just for the USAAF.

L. deZ.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

NICK thank you for the tip. It is on the wish list for Xmas...
Larry, thank you very much.

[Dmitry Volodin]

Here is what I found:
from Koch "Flak" - 01.09.39-31.10.41 - 5381 claims Lw-Flak (2000 - Ostfront) (Gen.St.d.Lw)
25.06.42-06.01.43 - 1430 claims Flakwaffen (Sonderorientirungen des OKW/WFSt/Op)
31.12.42 - 8706 claims Lw-Flak
21.05.43 - 10000 claims Gen.d.Flak
from Westermann "Flak" - 1489 claims to the end of 1940
from Obermaier "RKT Traeger" - october 1944 - 20000 claims Flak

[Theo Boiten]

Dear all,

This is what I've written in the Introduction to the Nachtjagd Combat Archive series on this topic:

In the most intensive night air war campaign the world has ever witnessed, the Nachtjagdverbände achieved an estimated 5,942-6,000 aerial victory claims (or Abschüsse) in the Reichsverteidigung on the Western Front, mainly against RAF Bomber Command. Furthermore, twin-engined Nachtjagd crews achieved approximately 137 American heavy bomber Abschüsse and six escort fighters shot down during daylight in the West during 1943-44. The Luftwaffe and Marine Flak arms achieved an estimated 2,121 Abschüsse at night in the West, of which at least 590 were either shared with or contested by Nachtjäger. An estimated 797 Flak searchlight claims for the illumination and contribution to the destruction of Bomber Command aircraft have been identified during the research of this book. Operating in the East against the Soviet Air Force, Nachtjäger tallied an estimated 728 victory claims. Lastly, the Nachtjagdverbände amassed around 234 Abschüsse in the Mediterranean and South East Europe.

[Juha]

Besides the Luftwaffe and Marine Flak arms Heer also had its own Flak units. Most of their victims were fighters, fighter-bombers and ground-attack planes but they also shot down bombers.