Wolfgang Spate's 1941 claims?

[Andrey Dikov]

>Funny you mention Adameit, because on the old forum was posted an account of JG54 veteran, who claimed that Adameit claimed victories of his young wingmen as his very own.
Otherwise, well, there are no German combat reports for most cases, so how can we know this interpretation is correct?

Well, I'm not after to learn exactly about their way of thinking or morale in this case. I just noted that those claims which are recorded for Adameit and were researched by me from Soviet losses point of view looks more reliable than other. That's it.

Main conclusion I can see from all those claims matters - that medium and generally poor-known LW experten probably were far better than primadonnas and traditional LW heroes.

Zweigart is not well known, but actually he probably shot down more than iconic Phillip or Ostermann.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Andrey Dikov

Well, I'm not after to learn exactly about their way of thinking or morale in this case. I just noted that those claims which are recorded for Adameit and were researched by me from Soviet losses point of view looks more reliable than other. That's it.

Oh well, I have just pointed out a story I heard, and that a historian must avoid any definite statements, as there are many stories unexpected.

Main conclusion I can see from all those claims matters - that medium and generally poor-known LW experten probably were far better than primadonnas and traditional LW heroes.

I have found several pilots with one or less kills that are generally more reliable than high scoring aces.
Any chances for a more detailed study?

Zweigart is not well known, but actually he probably shot down more than iconic Phillip or Ostermann.

Ostermann, that is intreresting. I have looked through his performances in Normandy, and it did not impress me. Is there anything to suggest, he was a little bit overenthusiastic?

[marsyao]

Franek, I don't think Ostermann participated the battle of Normandy, he was killed in east front in 1942

[Franek Grabowski]

Yes, I wrote that too late in the night!

[GMichalski]

Hello,

of the 178 claims of Hans Philipp in the eastern front, how many is confirmed by the enemy.......40%-50%-60%...and Ostermann???

regards.

[Jim P.]

Note that during the opening stages of 'Barbarossa' Spate flew a 109F coded 'black 4' per his FB, and that there is a photo of this machine from a distance in the JFV volume from this time (Vol. 6 or 7?).

[Nick Hector]

Getting back to the subject of Spaete, his claim over Pogostje on 17th March 1942 seems to match up very well with 4 GIAP's losses: Serzhant Abu Gissovich Bugov KIA trying to make an emergency landing and the aircraft of Lt. Grigory Grigorievich Guryanov was damaged.
...One more claim by him that seems to match up well.

[Nokose]

Nick, I've looked at the loss of Serzh. Abu Grisovich Bugov 4 GIAP KBF before and he was flying a I-16 and was shot down around 12:30 (Moscow). Spaete's claim was for an I-26 at 13:20 (Berlin or eastern European? 2 hours behind the first and 1 the latter). Bugov's lost is mystery claim as there is no one in JG54 claiming an I-16 around 10:30 or 11:30. Spaete's dogfight was probably with the 3 GIAP KBF at about 14:00 (Moscow) with LaGG-3. If their was a loss or damaged LaGG-3 from that fight, I haven't found it yet. Sergey Ivanovich Sukov claimed a Bf 109 in that fight but the only loss is Bf 109F-4 (8347) of the 5./JG54. There is no way to confirm Sukov shot down this one because of no time of loss. The Soviets made 6 claims for Bf 109s that day.

[Nick Hector]

Thanks Nokose,

Is there any chance of an error in the recording of timings? The location certainly matches up well.