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  #11  
Old 21st October 2018, 00:47
Monaco Monaco is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

Thank you Theo,
you were quicker than I, but I give you my info anyway: The 27th info I got from the Wiki article (always you handle with care!) and I thought as it derives from the following books mentioned in the biblio:

Fellgiebel, Walther-Peer (2000) [1986]. Die Träger des Ritterkreuzes des Eisernen Kreuzes 1939–1945
Obermaier, Ernst (1989). Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe Jagdflieger 1939 – 1945
Patzwall, Klaus D.; Scherzer, Veit (2001). Das Deutsche Kreuz 1941 – 1945 Geschichte und Inhaber Band II
Scherzer, Veit (2007). Die Ritterkreuzträger 1939–1945
Stockert, Peter (2007). Die Eichenlaubträger 1939–1945 Band 5
Thomas, Franz (1998). Die Eichenlaubträger 1939–1945 Band 2

I have neither of this books, but I think the Price interview is the first hand source (I was also oblivious to that and I would be interested in). BTW Larry (de Zeng) also mentioned the night of 24./25.04.45 for Schönert´s shoot down and we should ask him about the date and his source.
The claims for 4 Il-4s I have from Foreman/ Matthews/ Parry and the website of Jan Safarik. With this four unconfirmed included I have a full list of 60 confirmed + 5 unconfirmed victories for Schönert.
Regarding the USAAF I have no night combat claims for the period 25.-27.4.45. So the downing of Schönert´s Ju.88 seems to be unrecorded - I will check now the soviet side....
Cheers
Michael
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  #12  
Old 21st October 2018, 01:14
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

Hi Michael & Theo,

Theo, I think this is a conundrum we've looked at previously, without resolution.

There are no recorded air combat claims by Mosquito crews between 25-26 April and 2-3 May 1945 (there are a few claims for aircraft parked on the ground) and the last USAAF P-61 air combat claim was on the night of 24-25 April. Could a Soviet aircraft have shot down Schoenert?

In terms of when Schoenert flew, I have no idea how he remembered this specific date. The 2. Jagddivision Nachtjagdverbände did fly sorties against the Soviets on the night of 26-27 April (as evidenced above) and possibly also 27-28 April 1945.

The Flugbuch of Werner Hoffmann (1./NJG5) records a sortie on 26-27 April - take-off (in Ju88 C9+OL) from Redlin on 26th, 23.18h, landing at Redlin on 27th, 01.26h ("Frei Nachtjagd im Raum Küstrin-Berlin-Hanover"). However, the Flugbuch of Harry Farber, who flew with Hoffmann on the same sortie, records it as 27-28 April 1945 - take-off (in Ju88 C9+PL) from Redlin on 27th, 23.18h, landing at Redlin on 28th, 01.25h. The two Flugbücher also disagree on another sortie flown on 24-25 or 25-26 April.

As previously mentioned, the OKL Ost Morgenmeldungen (BArch RL 2 II/393) would probably clarify the matter...

Cheers

Rod
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  #13  
Old 21st October 2018, 10:29
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

Hi Michael,

the Foreman/Matthews/Parry book simply regurgitates the contents of the tainted NJG Abchüsseliste by the late Emil Nonnenmacher, the contents of which need to be treated with caution.

One version of the Nonnenmacher list shows the following:

24./25. 4. 45

Osten

Major Schoenert, Stab NJG 5, 4 x IL 4, S Berlin (for victory Nrs 62 - 65)

Cheers

Rod
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  #14  
Old 21st October 2018, 19:05
Monaco Monaco is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

Thanks for clearing that up Rod,
yes we have to be careful...also with this one - interesting, but I cannot verify it...

Photo 01: The rear fuselage of a Junkers Ju 88G-6, WNr. 620788, with an unusual SN-2 aerial configuration. The aerials were mounted in this fashion in an experiment to determine whether the SN-2 would be less sensitive to 'Window' jamming, more effective in detecting high-flying bombers, and more efficient in detecting Mosquitoes approaching from behind and below. This particular aircraft, coded C9+AA, was assigned to Eichenlaubtrager Major Rudolf Schonert, the Kommodore of NJG5 at Lubeck-Blankensee, who is thought to have flown the machine with this installation only once. On that occasion, during a sortie east of the Elbe on 27 April 1945, an electrical fault rendered the radar unserviceable and the Ju 88 was shot down by a Mosquito. Schonert survived and was rescued by German troops. He died in Canada in 1985.

"Reference" https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ju-88/NJG5.html

So it will be hard, but I´m trying to find matches for 7 Il-4 losses on 24-25.04.45 in soviet online sources (...next weekend)

Thanks & Greets

Michael
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  #15  
Old 21st October 2018, 19:08
Monaco Monaco is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

...just one more thought: Schoenert could have been wrong in the date some 15-20 years after the event, when I think about events in my life that long ago...


Cheers

Michael
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  #16  
Old 21st October 2018, 19:37
Theo Boiten Theo Boiten is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

Hi Michael,

Hope you'll be able to find (some of) the Il-4 losses on 24-25.4.45!

Cheers, Theo
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  #17  
Old 22nd October 2018, 01:40
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

Hi Michael,

your post about Ju88G-6 W.Nr. 620788 C9+AA illustrates the danger of sourcing information written on the internet : )

The photo you refer to was taken at Eggebek airfield on 29 May 1945, by a member of a British Technical Air Panel (source: TNA AIR 14/2661), so it was hardly shot down on 27 April...

Rudolf Schoenert stated in a 1970s letter that, "a few experimental aircraft of this kind - no more than five - were in existence and flying during the last two months of the war". Thus, if Schoenert flew a Ju88 with fuselage-mounted dipoles on 27 April, then it was one of the "five" but not 620788.

Does anyone know of Dr Alfred Price's interview of Rudolf Schoenert in the 1960s is mentioned in any of his books? I've had a cursory glance through several but did not find anything.

Regards

Rod
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  #18  
Old 22nd October 2018, 02:23
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

Quote:
Originally Posted by RodM View Post
Hi Michael,

your post about Ju88G-6 W.Nr. 620788 C9+AA illustrates the danger of sourcing information written on the internet : )

The photo you refer to was taken at Eggebek airfield on 29 May 1945, by a member of a British Technical Air Panel (source: TNA AIR 14/2661), so it was hardly shot down on 27 April...

Rudolf Schoenert stated in a 1970s letter that, "a few experimental aircraft of this kind - no more than five - were in existence and flying during the last two months of the war". Thus, if Schoenert flew a Ju88 with fuselage-mounted dipoles on 27 April, then it was one of the "five" but not 620788.

Does anyone know of Dr Alfred Price's interview of Rudolf Schoenert in the 1960s is mentioned in any of his books? I've had a cursory glance through several but did not find anything.

Regards

Rod
If this is an error, then I see it has also crept into the Kracker database, but not deZeng and Stankey's lists.
I take it the serials for the other converted aircraft are not known?
Peter
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  #19  
Old 22nd October 2018, 14:25
Monaco Monaco is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

You' right Rod, but this is what' s the Forums ist alles about and why I live it so much!
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  #20  
Old 8th November 2018, 20:32
Monaco Monaco is offline
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Re: Rudolf Schoenert 27.4.45

No luck so far for Schoenert´s 1945 claims, but maybe interesting info about an earlier successful night, when he claimed 4 Mitchells in a row on 31.08.-01.09.43 between 22.01-23.00. 4 GAD DD lost 4 B-25 Mitchells that night No.676 of 22 GAP DD on a bombing mission to Pochinok railway station, No.237 and No.679 of 13 GAP DD on a bombing mission to Borovskoye (the latter reportedly to AA fire) and No.648 of 15 GAP DD (on a photo result mission to Borovskoye A/D).
What I needed to attribute the losses to Schoenert´s claims would be the times of the missions of the regiments taking part or the datas of the war diary of 4 GAD and the location of Borovskoye airfield.

Cheers

Michael
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