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  #1  
Old 21st May 2007, 18:17
jaepton jaepton is offline
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Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

My interpretation of a post in this thread by the FTA forum administrator
shows they view Christopher Shores has a revisionist out to get the AVG.
Just like their view of Daniel Ford.

I have heard that Christopher Shores has written a lot of slander against the AVG, which has been gleefully picked up by other "historians" and reported on. All without ANY supporting evidence.
Lydia Rossi

http://forums.flyingtigersavg.com/ub...ML/001776.html

Opinions??
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  #2  
Old 21st May 2007, 19:23
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

I have not read the books by Christopher Shores, but... I can tell you that Shores has a very bad reputation for not being able to substantiate his stories. I don't know why you would call him "one of the finest researchers ..."

I love that: I haven't read anything from CS, but I can tell you that's pure BS!

I have worked with Chris for years and have always appreciated his clinical way of dealing with things.
The problem comes when you touch sensitive topics. It seems to be the case with these AVG flatterers. The fact to write that they were probably not the "top guns" they claimed to be is a crime to their eyes. Even Boyington admitted it!
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Old 21st May 2007, 20:06
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

The claim that Ford and Shores wrote without any evidence is painfully ludicrous, since they built their case on available documentation from BOTH sides, instead of Allied (read AVG) only. This reverse reasoning can only be a weak attempt to lower the credibility of Ford and Shores.

The AVG were special men, although Ford shows them more as well paid mercenaries than idealists, similar of the type that later flew for the CIA in South East Asia, but they were the darlings of the American public and a source of good news during a dark period. However wartime claims are not always the best benchmark and public myth not the easiest foundation to shake.

Unfortunately for the AVG, not all their claims have stood the scrutiny of objective historical research. If thorough research based on available documents from both sides show a different story, it is time to revise our take of events. If that process is called revisionism, there is nothing to be ashamed about...

If we look at the writings of Shores and his team regarding the air war in the Netherlands East Indies, it is nothing but thorough and objective. It shows inflated claims on both sides, but events seem to match pretty accurately. At least no Dutch historian has disputed their findings, far from it, they form the basis of current publications.

Finally IMHO the truth wouldn't hurt the AVG as much as this controversy.

Overclaiming isn't unique, it doesn't change the special circumstances under which these men fought.

It doesn't change their flamboyant, even "Hollywood-esque" image, as Flying Tigers. It doesn't even influence their role in History: they were there when the United States needed them and they fought a hard battle that was in many ways unique (be that as a publicity tool or a military unit).
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  #4  
Old 22nd May 2007, 07:03
NickM NickM is offline
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

Exactly guys! So what if the AVG didn't shoot down 299 Japanese aircraft? From what I read they STILL managed to give a bloody nose to the IJAAF bomber & fighter units that up to that point were having the war going THEIR way & had suffered minimal losses---and THAT is good enough for me!

NickM

PS: Having doubts as to Chris Shores' credibility & accuracy of research is practically aviation 'blasphemy'!
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  #5  
Old 22nd May 2007, 13:33
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

I had a long discussion with Ford about his book and consequent attacks by AVG'o'philes on him. He said he had been able to substantiate about 198 confirmed kills. By any standard, given the circumstances of the period this was a great effort. However, the AVG people told him that all Japanese records were fake and lies. Ford said at AVG reunions a few years ago, they now claim in the neighborhood of 600.
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Old 26th May 2007, 12:35
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

For what it's worth, a while ago I made a Shores bibliography, and it probably isn't complete:

Christopher Shores is the author or co-author of Fledgling Eagles (1992), Air War For Yugoslavia, Greece And Crete 1940-41 (1993), Malta: The Hurricane Years 1940-41 (1994), Malta: The Spitfire Year 1942 (1991), Dust Clouds In The Middle East - The Air War For East Africa, Iraq, Syria, Iran and Madagascar, 1940-42 (1996), L'Aviation De Vichy Au Combat - Les Campagnes Oubliees 3 Juiliet 1940 - 27 Novembre 1942 (1985), L'Aviation De Vichy Au Combat - La Campagne De Syrie 8 Juin - 14 Juilliet 1941 (1988), 2nd Tactical Air Force (1970), Bloody Shambles Vol.1 (1992), Bloody Shambles Vol.2 (1993), Air War for Burma (2005), Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete 1940-41 (1992), 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol 3 (2006), Above the Trenches Supplement (2002), Spanish Civil War Air Forces (1977), Aircam Battle of Britain (1969), Great Air Battles of WWII (2001), Aircam Finnish Air Force (1969), Duel for the Sky (1985), History of the Royal Canadian Air Force (1988), USAAF Fighter Units MTO (1978), The Typhoon and Tempest Story (1988), Stalin's Falcons (1999), Luftwaffe Fighter Units Europe (1979), Above the Trenches (1991), Air Aces (1983), Regia Aeronautica (1976), Luftwaffe Fighter Units Russia (1978), Luftwaffe Fighter Units Mediterranean (1978), British and Empire Aces of World War I (2001), Aces Past (1997), Those Other Eagles (2002), North American Mustang in RAF Service (1971), Pictorial History of Mediterranean Air War Vol 1 (1972), Vol 2 (1973), Vol 3 (1974), Ground Attack Aircraft of WW2 (1977), Luftwaffe Bomber Camouflage & Markings (1969), Curtiss Kittyhawk in RAF Service (1968), Hawker Hurricane in RAF Service (1972), Fighter Aces (1975), Fifty Fighters (1969), Armee de l'Air (1976), Luftwaffe Fighter Bomber & Marine Camouflage & Markings (1969), Fighters Over the Desert (1969), Curtiss Warhawk in RAF Service (1971), The Brewster Buffalo (1990?), Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete (1992), Aces High Vol 1 (2002) and Vol 2 (1999), Billy Drake, Fighter Leader (2002), Japanese Army Air Force Fighter Units & Aces (2002), Spitfire Leader (1997), USAAF Fighter Units MTO (1978), Fighters Over Tunisia (1975), and probably a bunch of others that I have overlooked.

In short, a well-published and well-regarded writer.
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Old 26th May 2007, 12:37
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

Sorry about the smilies! Just read them as close-quotes.
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Old 26th May 2007, 18:56
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

Hi guys

As a long-standing friend of Chris Shores and also co-author of 'Bloody Shambles' Volumes I and II, I feel that I must add my tuppence-worth. From the records I have had access to, I fully support Chris' version of Japanese losses as recorded in those two volumes, and therefore would doubt AVG claims.

Cheers
Brian
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  #9  
Old 27th May 2007, 22:04
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

Brian, how would you respond to this fairly typical argument, which was posted today on the AVG forum:

Can anyone give a logical reason why the Chinese government would pay $500 a piece for 'unconfirmed' victories. I'm aware of several pilots who believe they have one or two more 'kills' than their record indicates, but as they were uncomfirmed, they were not paid and they are not reflected on their official record. If a 'claim' was all that was needed for a victory, then why weren't ALL 'claims' honored, accepted, and paid for? As far as the posts on that other website, who's records were there to check, other than the first-hand accounts of the AVG, the British at Rangoon, and the Japanese? What records were there to be 'discovered' at this point in time, and how does one validate Japanese records of the day? The Japanese had every reason to play down their losses to the AVG. Or does one just accept them at face value because they fit with a particular agenda? I still favor the tally of victories indicated by the number PAID for by the Chinese government as being the most valid accounting.

("That other website" is almost certainly this one.)
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Old 28th May 2007, 00:06
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Flying Tigers VS Christopher Shores?

Hi Oldpilot

I understand Chris Shores is a member of TOCH so perhaps he will respond.

Cheers
Brian
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