German Navy Fokker D.VII

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


I'm realise I'm definitely offering my neck to the guillotine too...


I agree that the hand writing on the rudder perhaps does look a little freehand after all.Whereas it looks more like a stencil on the component parts.



D.2010/18 is as you correctly point out an OAW built machine, whereas as my reference to the drawings on P.25 applies, I believe to all aircraft. Indeed I'm wondering if stencilling components with the serial number was widespread across the whole German aircraft industry.I recall seeing this applied to the struts of the Pfalz Dr.I for example and I believe I've seen other examples too. I'll have to check that out.


Regards,


Clint

[musec04]

Hello Stig,


It doesn't exactly support the views in my previous post but it would appear that the Fokker Anthology does mean only early OAW built machines used the roman numerals for which also see:

wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3080&cat=1



Back to the drawing board!


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Clint

Some very nice photos of Fokker D.7 on that site.
I have to admit I have very little to contribute when it comes to details (such as part stenciling). Must have seen their existance but with no real interest in the construction (read technical matters) of aircraft, I most likely have bypassed them.

I have by now begun to think in terms of a replacement rudder. Could make sense you know.....

Cheers
Stig

[Petrusja]

Hello Stig, nice to talk to you, I see your name all over since I browse old photos for AirHistory.

First, the supposed Dutch serial is indeed F.227, my bad.

This archive is a municipal archive and they have no clue about aircraft (which makes it possible to find undiscovered gems). There happened to live a good photographer in Vlissingen (Flushing), Mr. Dert, and it seems he was hired to photograph the aircraft that came down in the area.

I suspect the information with the photos comes from the Netherlands Instititute for Military History (NIMH) which has some of the Dert photos in their own database, but not all. The information about crews seems to be quite reliable in other cases.

One Baum was interned in Holland according to Clint, so he came from somewhere.

I'm by no means an expert on WWI aircraft as my question about Idflieg serials proves. If D.5288/18 was not a valid D.VII (Alb) serial we would have a different case, but it is. I thought that 5288 was maybe the construction number, but if that is not possible, then this is D.5288/18 in my opinion.

It's sure a sloppy way of painting a serial on, but still. Maybe temporary if the aircraft was in the process of being painted, for example? That the Dutch applied this there in the mud of IJzendijke seems wildly unlikely to me. I would bet that nobody in the salvaging party knew that this plane was a Fokker D.VII.

If D.5584/18 is certain to have ended up in Holland, I would agree with Clint that this is probably simply another case. Why couldn't there be one?

I'll try to contact a Dutch expert on the interned aircraft and see what he says.

Regards,

Peter

[Petrusja]

Gentlemen, I just noticed that the 39th foto in the batch shows another close-up of the same aircraft. Have a very good look at the forward landing gear strut please.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Peter

I doubt very much you will find any new force landings in Holland during WW 1. They were all very well documented by (most likely) Dutch Air Force staff. No it is one and the same aircraft labeled as D.5584 in Dutch files, but showing D.5288 on the rudder.

I am also pretty certain that to be able to dismantle aircraft and later make them airworthy for said Air Force, they needed experts.

Of course these experts were familiar with the aircraft models at the time. Especially so a type already in its lifetime at the front considered to be the best fighter around (or at least one of them) and on top "designed" by a Dutchman. So, yes, they knew perfectly well what a Fokker D.VII was.

You say that Clint introduce the name Baum into this context, but he does not! It is actually you who state the pictured aircraft was flown by this mysterious Baum guy. Check your post 1. From where did you get it?

Enhancing photo 39 was very interesting since all I can read is that the strut in question actually says D.VII (not D.7 as written on the rudder). As far as I am concerned it rather "proves" my point (if not the case) that the rudder is a replacement or the scribbles have been made after landing. Unfortunately I cannot read the actual serial number. It could be anything.

Being completely non-technical, I can only assume that parts made to the Fokker D.VII could be fitted to any Fokker D.VII at the time, ie they were interchangable. Having looked at (by now) some photos which shows parts to be either stencilled or painted with both type and serial number, I am not so sure anymore. Why go to so much trouble labeling parts if they anyway were interchangable? At least I need someone with a lot more insight into why this was so, and also how the D.VII production lines were made up.

I am not saying this aircraft is not D.5288, but since all official documents state D.5584 someone at that time either made a boo-boo or knew something we don't....

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hello Stig,


With regard to Baum, it is at least a possibility that another Flyable Fokker D.VII was interned in France I believe. Jon Guttman in Naval Aces of World War 1 Part 2 P.52 states the following "Flgmt Baum landed his damaged aeroplane in Holland and was interned"


So not so badly damaged that he was killed. Again nothing definite and it remains open until the serial number of his machine and its fate is known. Presumably whatever the state of the machine a record from the dutch authorities must exist?


BTW I'm searching the net at the moment and it looks like 115 was on the rudder when the aircraft landed according to this contemporary dutch source:


http://www.aerofile.info/wordpress/?page_id=1351


I believe this may be significant as the date 15 October is included , while Guttman P.49 says Engelfried and D.5584/18 were interned in Holland 15 September, although he must have been released fairly quickly if so as P.53 credits Engelfried as destroying a gasbag 26 October. Something seems not quite right here!




Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Indeed Clint

There were many other D.VIIs which landed in Holland.
I don't have any crew listed for any of them, hence my interest in Baum since I am positive he was not onboard the presently discussed one.

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


Apologies I amended my post after you posted. Not sure it adds any clarity. Perhaps, the opposite in fact.



Regards,


Clint

[Petrusja]

Sorry, I deleted a post which was irrelevant - I also found the Aerofile page.

I think the landing gear strut says Fok. D VII (Alb) and then horizontally a number of which the second digit looks a lot like a 2.

Why paint that on a landing gear strut is a good question but they did it. Fokker and Albatross D.VIIs were completel yun-interchangeable by the way thanks to Fokker's artisan methods.