Lvov-Sandomierz operation July 1944

[yogybär]

Concerning the aerial OOB's during the Lvov-Sandomierz operation, Here is the data I collected so far:
1) From wikipedia:
" […]The only positive was the presence of the 700 aircraft of Luftflotte IV including the veteran air units of VIII.Fliegerkorps. However, due to the chain of command, Harpe could not directly control the Luftwaffe units without much communication through the Nazi bureaucracy.
The Soviet forces under Konev outnumbered the Germans considerably. The 1st Ukrainian Front could muster over 1,200,000 men, 2,050 tanks, 16,000 guns and mortars and over 3,250 aircraft of the VVS. […]"
In the book "In der Südwestrichtung" by a soviet Army commander who was involved, it is shown that 1.Ukrainian Front had 2 & 8 VA subordinated.

2) This would mean
2 бак , 1 сак, 3 шак, 3 иак, 6 бад, 9 шад, 12 иад, 1нбад, 3 рап, 2 крап
which would be ca. 900bombers incl. 100Po-2 for night, 1100Sturmos, 1200fighters= 3200 planes if one aerial regiment is taken as 25 A/C. Probably it was slightly less bombers and more Sturmos/fighters, but figures fit, so I am content.

3) German VIII. FK had the OOB at the very bottom in June 1944, which contains only 280 A/C (including only 8 fighters ), not 750. Maybe Wikipedia includes the whole LF 4. Nevertheless, I know that parts of JG52 (II & IIIGruppe) were transfered to Poland in July, meaning ca. 60 fighters more.

So, questions are:
- which other Luftwaffe-units were moved in the area in July?
- which planes did the below mentioned VVS-units use?
- any details on aerial battles known?

VVS-details:
2VA:
4 бак (202, 219, 321 бад), 1 гв. шак (8 и 9 гв. шад, 12 гв. иад), 8 шак (224, 227 шад, 236 иад), 5 иак (8 гв., 256 иад), 10 иак (10 гв., 235 иад), 10 гв. шад, 6 гв. иад, 208 нбад, 98 гв., 50 рап, 387 оапс, 1554, 1555, 1578, 1605, 1613 зенап
8VA:
1 гв. сак (5 и 6 гв. шад, 11 гв. иад), 2 гв. бак (1 и 8 гв., 244 бад), 5 шак (4 гв., 264 шад, 331 иад), 7 иак (9 гв., 205, 304 иад), 8 рап, 100 крап, 678 трап
1254, 1561, 1577, 1603 зенап
which is altogether

Lw-details:
Fernaufklärer:
2. (F) / 11 Jasionka 9 Ju 88
2. (F) / 100 Lublin 7 Ju 188
Nahaufklärer:
Stab / NAGr. 2 Strunybaby 5 Bf 109
1. / NAGr. 2 Stry 11 Bf 109
2. / NAGr. 2 Strunybaby 13 Bf 109
Schlachtflieger:
Stab IV. (Pz) / SG 9 Lysiatycze 6 Hs 129
12. (Pz) / SG 9 Stry Hs 129
13. (Pz) / SG 9 Lysiatycze 16 Hs 129
Stab / SG 77 Jasionka in Umrüstung
I. / SG 77 Jasionka in Umrüstung
II. / SG 77 Lemberg 33 Fw 190
III. / SG 77 Cuniow 42 JJu 87
10. (Pz) / SG 77 Starzawa 19 Ju 87
Ung.S.St. 102/1 Cuniow 11
Nachtschlacht:
Stab / NSGr. 4 Hordinia 4 Go 145
1. / NSGr. 4 Hordinia 28 Go 145
Bomber:
14. (Eis) / KG 27 Krosno 15 He 111
Fliegerführer 102 Ungarn - Labunia
Nahaufklärer:
Ung.N.A.St. 102/1 Labunia 8 (I guess Fw189)
7. / NAGr. 32 Labunia 11 Bf 109, Fw 190
Jäger:
Ung.JSt. 102/1 Zamocz 8
Bomber:
Ung.KSt. 102/1 Klemensowa 5
Schnellbomber:
Ung.SKSt. 12 (I guess Me410)

[yogybär]

bump?

Does this "no answer" mean that I am the only expert in this field ?

Cannot really believe that ...

[kolya1]

According to Soviet stats (Krivosheev), the soviet lost some 289 during the operation itself (13/07 to 29/08).

German losses remain unclear as there aren't many sources and they are reportedly incomplete but their losses have been quoted as approximately 1150 destroyed and 800 more damaged for july and august 1944, by wihch time 4 major soviet ops were going on (in which the soviets lost some 1550 planes, plus those lost during operationnal pauses).

That's not much but still it can be start, I hope this can help you...

P.S. : there may be some ambiguity in the sources, but as far as I understand it, for the year 1944, approximately 45 % of soviet combat losses were during strategic ops..., though as several of these were simultaneously going on in july- august, we could perhaps speculate that for this period, this proportion was higher...

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Jörg, the Hungarian 102/1. Fast Bomber Squadron was equipped with Hungarian manufctured Me 210Ca-1's, not with Me 410's.

[yogybär]

Thanks Kolya1! Can you specify "Soviet stats (Krivosheev)" a bit? I'd love to read through this!

Originally Posted by Csaba Becze

Jörg, the Hungarian 102/1. Fast Bomber Squadron was equipped with Hungarian manufctured Me 210Ca-1's, not with Me 410's.

OK, thanks Csaba. What is the difference except that they were produced in Hungary? Didn't they also have DB605 and the longer tail?

PS: In the meantime I found out that 2 groups of JG52 were moved to that area in July. So I would add 60Bf109G-6 to the german OoB.

[kolya1]

[quote=yogybär]Thanks Kolya1! Can you specify "Soviet stats (Krivosheev)" a bit? I'd love to read through this!


These figures come from an online book (although I think there was also a printed version) realised under direction of Gal. Krivosheev which provides compilations of russian and soviet losses in wars of the 20th century, along with a few other statistics...

They used internal military documents, and seem really credible.

The whole book :

http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/w/

The page where you can find the info I quoted above :

http://www.rus-sky.org/history/libra...tm#_Toc2489830


Unfortunately AFAIK, there's only a russian version, but it's not too hard to understand the tables...

[yogybär]

OK, maybe we can find out about VVS:

Which AIP / BAP were in 2VA:
202, 219, 321 IAD 12 GIAD, 236 IAD), 8 GIAD, 256 IAD, 10GIAD, 235 IAD, 6 GIAD
8VA:
11 GIAD, 2 GBAK(1 GBAD, 8GBAD, 244BAD), 331 IAD), 9 GIAD, 205IAD, 304IAD),

as a start. And the go on at least to types of AC...

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

The first edition of Krivosheev book is translated to English:
Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century, edited by Col.Gen. G.F.Krivosheev, Greenhill Books, 1997 (ISBN 1-85367-280-7). There is also an updated Russian version, which to my knowledge has not been translated.
Carl

[yogybär]

Below is what I found out about the eqiupment of the IAPs. Please excuse bad format etc, it is from my own notes.

From this data, I would get/assume/estimate the following distribution of fighter types:
11IAP-P39, 6Jak9, 2Jak7, 2Jak1, 1Jak3, 5La5 SUM=26
450P39, 280Jak9, 90Jak7B, 90Jak1b, 50Jak3, 240La5

I find it very interesting that there is such a high number of P-39-equipped IAPs... Maybe only these units were "very good" and thus concentrated in the area of offensive operations like here? Can anyone comment on this?

2VA
12GIAD=
272IAP,
247=156G-IAP: Lagg-3 Jak1+Jak9
270=152G-IAP: И-16, ЛаГГ-3, Як-1, Як-7, Як-3
516=153G-IAP: И-16, ЛаГГ-3, Як-1, Як-3.
8GIAD=
40IAP=41GIAP: И-16, а с 1942 г. Ла-5
141IAP=40GIAP: I-16+MiG-3; 9'42=LaGG3-La5, 12'44=La7
166IAP=88GIAP: I-16, 6'42=LaGG3, x:La5, 3'34: La7
256IAD=
32IAP:октября 1942 Як-1, 43 Як-7, ... Як-9
728IAP: ?Jak9?
10GIAD=
13IAP=111GIAP: И-153, И-16 и МиГ-3; 9'41=Jak1@Krim, Sommer42=Lagg3@Stagra, 11'42=La5, E44=La7
437IAP=113GIAP: I-16, LaGG3, La5, 7'44La5FN, ...La7
236IAP=112GIAP: I-16, 5'42=Jak1, 2'45=Jak3
235IAD=
46IAP: I-16+153, 8'41=LaGG3, 6'43=Hurri, 8'42@Stagra, 9'42=Aira
436IAP: Jak1, 42=Hurri, 10'42=P40; später ?P-39?
180IAP: 10'41MiG3+LaGG3, 3'42=Hurri, 3'43 P-39
181IAP: LaGG3, La5
239IAP: La5
6GIAD
296IAP=73GIAP: I16+MiG3; 2'42=Jak1;43=Jak1,Jak7; Jak1+Jak9
....
8VA
11GIAD=
129IAP=5GIAP: I16+MiG3; 11'41=LaGG3, 12'42=La5; 1'45=La7
814IAP: 4'42=Hurri; 10'42=Jak1; 1'43@Millerovo; 3'44=Jak1,Jak7, ...Jak3
867IAP=И-16, МиГ-3, ЛаГГ-3, Як-1, Як-9, Як-3
331IAD=
122IAP=I153+I16+MiG3, 6'42=Jak1, 43Jak7B, 44Jak9
9GIAD=
55IAP=16GIAP: 12'42=P39
8IAP=42GIAP: И-16, а с 1942 г. Як-1, позже Як-7, Як-9
36IAP=57GIAP: I-16, 4-7'43: Spit5, 9'43=P39
45IAP=100GIAP: Jak1, 3'43=P40+P39
205IAD=
508IAP: LaGG3, 1'43=Jak7, 10'43=P39
27IAP: I16+MiG3, Kaliningrad, Mig3, 6'42=Hurri, 9'42=Jak1, kurz später Jak7, 8'43=P39
304IAD=
38IAP=21GIAP: I16, 12'41=LaGG3, 4'42=Jak1, 12'43=P39
10IAP=69GIAP: I16+MiG3; 3-7'42=LaGG3 @ Kaliningrad; 10'42=P40; ... P39
9IAP=211GIAP: I16, 4'42=Hurri @ Südwestfront

[kolya1]

I should check further but as you can see there are a number a guards units there, among the P-39 units, 9 GIAD, and more particularly 16 GIAP (3rd scoring soviet unit of the war) and 100 GIAP are very famous units.

But the Lavochkin-equipped 5 GIAP was also one of the best fighter units of the VVS (2nd scoring of the war).

I don't know if there is any particular reason for the concentration a P-39 units... Maybe most of them were concentrated in certain VAs in order to simplify the supply system...

Besides, there were several simultaneous major operations at the time, if some units were better than others, they were probably not all concentrated on the same offensive, but this remains speculation...