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Old 18th July 2018, 14:03
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Heinrich Bartels victims

Hello all

I have difficulties in identifying the POSSIBLE victims of Bartels
Someone can help me?

02/11/43=2 spits (Shkodra-Montenegro)
04/11/43=1 boston (Durazzo-Albania) maybe an identification error,but what in real?
11/04/44=1 P-38(Graz) I have also a doubt about the date
23/04/44=3 spits(Celje-Slovenia) error of identification?
24/06/44=2 P-51(Flers)15h00

Thanks in advance
Michel
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Old 18th July 2018, 14:28
Boris Ciglic's Avatar
Boris Ciglic Boris Ciglic is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Michel,


I will use quotes from my book 'Bf 109 The Yugoslav Story' for general assessment of Bartels' claims:


'23 April opened with a claim of three Spitfires by Fw. Heinrich Bartels of 11./JG 27, southwest of Celje between 08.20 and 08.23. None of these can be traced in Allied documents, which isn’t strange as Slovenia was well out of range of the Spitfire bases in Italy.'


'On 28 April Fw. Heinrich Bartels of 11./JG 27 reported two Mustangs shot down 15 km northeast of Ljubljana at 10.38 and 10.39. As in many previous cases, his claims were dubious as nothing of the kind can be traced in Allied documents. Although overclaiming was a regular occurrence for both Allied and German pilots on all fronts, in most cases it could have been attributed to the hectic and chaotic dynamic of air combat, and the vast majority of non-confirmable air victories were submitted in good faith. However, unlike other Luftwaffe fighter pilots in the Balkans, Heinrich Bartels’ claims from the autumn of 1943 onwards fall completely outside this category and can be considered fictitious in most cases. Not only did he heavily overclaim in instances of aerial clashes with easily identifiable opponents, but on several occasions he reported engagements at places and times when no Allied aircraft were in sight.'



Cheers,

Boris
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Old 18th July 2018, 15:28
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Hello all

I have difficulties in identifying the POSSIBLE victims of Bartels
Someone can help me?

02/11/43=2 spits (Shkodra-Montenegro)
04/11/43=1 boston (Durazzo-Albania) maybe an identification error,but what in real?
11/04/44=1 P-38(Graz) I have also a doubt about the date
23/04/44=3 spits(Celje-Slovenia) error of identification?
24/06/44=2 P-51(Flers)15h00

Thanks in advance
Michel
Hi Michel,

Here's what I have on Bartels' victims and overclaims. Happy for any corrections and additions:

Heinrich Bartels
Victims and Overclaims

27.8.41/1145 3.Erg/JG 26 Spitfire IIA Wedumer-Alten
Probably P8726 of 403 sqn RCAF. F/L E C Cathels POW

26.4.42/0950 Hurricane Ura Guba 769 IAP. Slight overclaiming, only one loss: Starshiy Politruk Leonty Anokhin baled out safely. (Also claimed by Oskar Timm)

14.5.42/1835 Curtiss P-40 ("Hurricane") Titowka Day's losses include Alexei Stepanovich Khlobystov of 20 GIAP, rammed a Bf109 in P-40E-1 41-24879. Unit also suffered Mladshiy Leytenant Pshenev damaged in combat (Heinz Beyer also claimed around this time)

29.7.42/1015 and 1016 2 x Hurricane IIBs? ("I-61s") N of Murmansk @ 4000m
769 IAP, 122 IAD lost Lt. Grigorii D Ogoltsov and Hurricane IIB BG933 of Serzhant S F Kramor KIA in air combat this date

5.8.42/1240 and 1245 2 x Curtiss P-40s Schonguy-Murmash
195 IAP. Losses include Starshina Aleksey Nikitovich Trushin KIA

13.8.42/1506 to 1520 1 x I-153 and 2 x Curtiss P-40s Known to be overclaims

2.9.42/1115 to 1125 1 x P-39, 1 x I-180 and 1 x Curtiss P-40
27 IAP or VVS 14th Army. Actual losses were only one I-16 and one P-40. Pilots were Serzhant Silayev and Serzhant Yemelyanov. Additionally, two P-40s and one I-16 were damaged (versus ca. 12 claims)

23.3.43/1415 – 1420 1 x P-39 and 2 x Curtiss P-40s
122 IAD had at least two losses: Maj. Aleksandr P Olisekh (name possibly incorrectly translated or copied) of unit unknown KIA and Serzhant Viktor Gusev of 767 IAP KIA (versus 5 possible claims)

5.10.43/1223 and 1233 2 x B-24 Liberators Salonika sector
Bartels is credited with 41-24035 "The Gremlin" of 376th BG. Crew of Charles A Petty, 8 KIA and 2 POW

8.10.43/1350 – 1355 3 x P-38 Lightnings Lebedaia sector
82nd FG. - P-38G-10-LOs 42-13062 James P Shawver KIA (definite JG 27 victim) and 43-2332 Clayton A Bennett evaded (the latter came from 95th FS, also definitely to JG 27 over Greece)

23.10.43/1311 Italian Co-Belligerent Re2002 ("Spitfire") SSW of Podgorica airfield @ 2000m
208 sq. 5 Stormo. Ten. Ugo Bassi MIA and Serg. Aldrovandi (Kirschner claimed 2 as well)

31.10.43/1515 and 1520 2 x P-38Fs Kap Rodoni sector
12th or 15th AAF. Believed to be overclaiming, no known losses

15.11.43/1310 to 1314 4 x P-38s SE of Kalamaki
Overclaiming, several sources say only 2 P-38s lost this day: P-38F-15-LO 43-2184 of 71st FS, 1st FG (definitely to IV/JG 27, James A McClure KIA) and P-38G-10-LO 42-13238 of 82nd FG, but have also found 42-13275 of 5 PRG (12th AAF) (There were 13 claims in total….)

17.11.43/1250 and 1252 2 x B-25s NE of Kalamaki
Day's only known loss was B-25C-20 Mitchell 42-64540 of 486th BS, 340th BG. 4 KIA, 1 POW, 1 evaded (It was likely one of Bartels' claims as it was lost near Kalamaki) ( versus 5 claims in total)

17.11.43/1258 P-38 E of Marathon 12th or 15th AAF. Likely overclaiming, no known losses

24.4.44/1345 and 1347 2 x P-51 Mustangs 10km W of Muehldorf
Joe Baugher attributes 42-106433/(OS-R?) of 357th FS, 355th FG Lt. Robert L Norman KIA to Bartels

28.4.44/1038 and 1039 2 x P-51 Mustangs 15km NE of Laibach
HQ of 352nd FG lost 42-103316/PZ- of LtCol. Eugene L Clark KIA. Also 42-103295/D7- of 503rd FS, 339th FG, Lt. Robert F Mulvey KIA

14.6.44/0728 to 0805 4 x P-47 Thunderbolts Argentan-Falaise sector
Most likely 377th FS, 362nd FG. Includes 42-8498/E4- of 2/Lt. John J Drabek forcelanded POW ; 42-26148/E4- of 1/Lt. Richard M Hoff KIA and 42-75583/E4- of 2/Lt. John C Larkin evaded capture (all attributed to Fw190s near Elbeuf)

24.6.44/1505 and 1508 2 x P-51 Mustangs Flers sector
8th or 9th AAF. Likely overclaiming. Only two known losses this date were from 363rd FG, neither of them directly attributable to these combats

23.12.44 P-47D Thunderbolt Bad Godesberg area
56th FG. Was this 44-19767/LM-M of 62nd FS? Lt. Charles E Carlson KIA. Or 44-20615/LM-B "West o' the Rockies" also of 62nd FS? Lt. Lewis R Brown POW. 63rd FS lost 44-19911/UN-R of F/O John E Lewis KIA
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Old 18th July 2018, 19:38
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Boris

23/4/44
I considered an error of identification,without being very convinced!A "track" that I tried is the Co-Belligerent air force but my sources are "poor" and old.

Actually this 'guy' is quite particular!for the moment,out of 36 claims in the Balkans,only 6 correspond to allied losses!!(of which 2 may be shared)

Nick

In your list:
28/4/44
seems not lost in the region of Ljubljana

14/06/44
that day I have 13 P-47 lost (6 of 362th FG,it seems in 3 separate fights),for now I'm looking for the places of the crash.

24/6/44
one possibility is - may be-? mustangs of the RAF.

michel
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Old 19th July 2018, 09:45
Zoran Petek Zoran Petek is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
24/6/44
one possibility is - may be-? mustangs of the RAF.
Hello to all investigators.
I found two RAF Mustangs shot down on 24.6.44.
Mustang III, FZ123, 65 Sqn RAF (pilot Sgt John Michael Sumner, 1801255, RAFVR, KIA), shot down by a Fw 190 near Dreux 24.6.44. Part of 122 Wing's force (19, 65 and 122 Sqns RAF) that fought with Fw 190s near Dreux, at leat 8 German aircraft claimed shot down and 2 probables. The only RAF pilot from Iceland, F/O 'Tony' Johnson (FZ112, 65 Sqn) claimed 2 Bf 109.
Another one is Mustang III, FZ157, PK-Q , 315 'Polish' Sqn RAF (pilot Jan Adamiak, P.782794, KIA) shot down by a Fw 190 near Tillers.
133 'Polish' Wing fought with Bf 109s and Fw 190s near Tillers and W/C Skalski (133 Wg, Mustang III FZ152, SS) claimed 2 Bf 109; 315 Sqn: F/O Polak (FB145, PQ-F, claimed 2 Bf 109), F/L Schmidt (FX995, PQ-E, claimed 1 Fw 190), + 3 probables by 2 another pilots; 306 Sqn: T/L Sporny (FZ149, UZ-W, claimed one Fw 190).
Also engaged were Spitfires of 132 'Norwegian' Wing, 331 Sqn's pilots claimed near Caen 3 Bf 109s shot down and one probable, and 132 Wing OC L.Col R.A. Berg claimed one shot down.
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Old 19th July 2018, 13:12
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Hello Zoran,

on 24 June 1944 the 65 Sqn RAF lost 4 Mustang III in the area Dreux, all shot down by FW 190 of III./JG 54.

FX944 F/Lt B P W Clapin evaded
FX988 F/Sgt E T Williams evaded
FZ109 Sgt D C Webb evaded
FZ123 F/Sgt William Arthur Sumner KIA 1389490 (not Sgt John Michael Sumner 1801255).
Source: Norman Franks "RAF Fighter Command Losses" Vol.3.

Regards
Leo
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Old 19th July 2018, 13:30
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Hi Michel

I am inclined to believe Nick Hector's overclaiming with Bartels, seems he brought his habits with him to JG 27 from JG 5, this is strange as JG 27 was generally an honest unit, even more strange is that Bartels was never an officer so could not have used any rank leverage on his witnesses. If you have more than one JG 27 pilot claiming for a single Allied loss I would dismiss Bartels as the true victor.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 19th July 2018, 16:28
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoran Petek View Post
Hello to all investigators.
The only RAF pilot from Iceland, F/O 'Tony' Johnson (FZ112, 65 Sqn) claimed 2 Bf 109.
Hello Zoran. You don't happen to have the a/c codes for FZ112, do you?
Thanks
Peter
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Old 19th July 2018, 18:10
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoz99 View Post
Hello Zoran. You don't happen to have the a/c codes for FZ112, do you?
Thanks
Peter

Peter,

Just to help your process of elimination amongst sources:

Shores and Thomas' 2nd Tactical Air Force vol 2, p. 179 lists Jonsson's claims on p.179 with serial FZ112 as stated by Zoran. Unfortunately no code letter is listed.

...Apologies if you already knew that....

Nick
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Old 19th July 2018, 21:34
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: Heinrich Bartels victims

Hi Johannes

Actually,I agree that in GENERAL the JG27 was an honest unit,EXCEPT the IV/Gruppe who is the"ugly duckling"f his first 88 claims,only 23 correspond to an allied losses:not great ratio!

Thanks for yours efforts.
24/06/44
One thing is sure,the RAF mustangs are not the claimed P-51 toward Flersreux and Flers,it's not really the same region!

14/06/44
I identify 3 P-47 of 362th FG lost in the region of Elboeuf:too far from claims of Bartels.

Remains 2 whose place is unknown:
Lt.JONES E.BOLT (362th FG,379TH FS-43-25311) MACR 6508
Lt.Ralph E.Philipps (362TH FG,377TH FS-42-76388) MACR 6495

Michel
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