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  #1  
Old 11th November 2006, 20:25
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

There has been edited just now in Poland my long material about: Soviet over Finland, 25-30 June 1941. All text is in Polish and has English caption under photos.
This is the first such story about Soviet air attack done over Finland and Northern part of captured Norway in June 1941 edited in Poland.
Soviet aviation in these few days had done almost 1.000 combats flight (land and navy aviation), mainly over Finnish targets but also against German air force bases in Norway.

Text is supported by 23 photos + 4 color sides, and presents air action from both side. During these 6 days of air operation Soviet VVS RKKA had lost over 70 combat planes. Despite many combat flights and quite height rate of Soviet losses impact of these Soviet attacks on Finnish and Luftwaffe aviation was minimal. FAF had lost a few damaged planes after these attacks and a few next during non-combat flights.
According Soviet official history it was a big success of VVS RKKA. Soviet had officially claimed the destruction of about 130 enemy planes on airstrips and in the air. This is the quite high rate of over claiming done by Soviet command and it is simple Soviet propaganda.
Finnish and Luftwaffe units never had sustained such high rate of losses in these days. Instead the destruction of military targets much more losses were done on civil (personal and material losses among Finns).


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

Sowieci nad Finlandią 25-30 czerwca 1941 roku, p. 14, 23 b&w photos, 4 color sides: G.50 FA-11 of 3./LLv 26. B.239: 2xBW-352 of 2./LLv 26; D.XXI FR-116 of 1./LLv 32, [in:] Militaria XX wieku, no 6 (15) /2006.
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  #2  
Old 12th November 2006, 17:33
Rune Rautio Rune Rautio is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

Hello Mirek,

What Soviet defence regions are included in the casuality number approx. 130 aircraft for the days 25 to 30 June 1941? I presume that this might include Leningrad area? Because if it is only VVS SF and VVS KF, my own findings do not support those large figures of Soviet losses. Indeed, VVS SF and VVS KF had heavy losses during those seven days, byt my own counting of combat losses and combat damages only reaches to 53 aircraft. And that includes 27 aircraft destroyed or damaged on the ground due to German air attacks. So, the operative combat casualities for VVS SF and VVS KF for these days seem to have been 26 aircraft. 24 of these aircraft were lost. Even if also including flight accidents (that sometimes can be related to enemy actions) the total number of operative losses with VVS SF and VVS KF together only seem to reaches 31 aircraft.

Rune
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  #3  
Old 12th November 2006, 19:57
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Some explanation

Hi
Some misundrestanding -130 it is claimed Finns+LW Losses
The area of the attack was as far as from air bases from Murmansk up to the South to the air bases in Northen Estonia. It was the "scope" of this air operation.

This 130 enemy planes destroy it is genaral information of claims done by Soviet VVS RKKA from the report of gen A.A. Novikov, who was commander of Leningrad Military Distric Air Forces (Northern Front). This figure is standard for enemy losses (Finns+ LW) during this 6 days period, printed in several Soviet-times materials.

It has not any confirmation with oposite side data and real losses, including small German air units based in the Northern Norway and operated over Murmansk areas.

The losses of VVS RKKA (land + navy avaition: North +Baltic Fleet) during these days and losses "over Finland", were total 73 planes (25-30 VI 41).

These figure does not included the losses done by German over Murmansk (Northen Fleet + other Soviet air bases - aviation of 14 Army - 3 air regiments). During the first day of Soviet air attack, they did lost 28 combat planes: 24 SBs + 1 I-16 + 3 I-153s.

Over Northen Norway had fought bombers of 137. BAP (SBs) + 72. SAP NF, which had done several air mission on Germany air bases - which were mainly empty - on 25 VI 41.

BTW: to the first attack on "Finland" Novikov had planned to use the air force of 540 military planes (375 bombers +165 fighters). There were used in fact less air power over "Finland" on 25 VI.

Second: air operation of LW in N.Norway (since 22 VI) and FAF air operation between 25-30 VI 41 it is for me quite different case, I have not mixed them into one thing. So, the losses of 14 Army aviation + VVS NF operated over N.Norway, if were not directly related with "Finnish air operation" are not counted in my material. The losses of VVS KBF are counted only if related Finnish areas of air operation.
There were of course several more VVS RKKA no-combat losses, done by own A/A or own air-forces or by pilots erros, which make total losses higher on Soviet side. for exaple total losss of VVS RKKA over Finalnd on 25 VI 41 were 31 planes of which 26 were lost due to the combat over Finland, there rest - 5 - were non-comabt total losses.

Regards,
mw
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Old 18th November 2006, 16:37
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

I have deiscovered small type error during the writing this post
The brewsters were in LLv 24 not in LLv 26, and the correct unit of this BW-352 was not 2./LLv 26 but 2./LLv 24. There is right inforamtion in the text but wrong was on this post. Sorry for samll confusion :-(

Sowieci nad Finlandią 25-30 czerwca 1941 roku, p. 14, 23 b&w photos, 4 color sides: G.50 FA-11 of 3./LLv 26. B.239: 2xBW-352 of 2./LLv 26; D.XXI FR-116 of 1./LLv 32,

Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski
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  #5  
Old 19th November 2006, 09:42
Dominik Dominik is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

I have read this article and I think that it is useless and full of information which has nothing to do the title.
First you have written that Soviets attacked Finladnd without declaring war and few lines later it is written that Finland declared war upon USSR. So where is the point? Other thin which is interesting in your opinion is that USSR "illegaly" attacked Finland...sorry if I had been Stalin I would have attacked country which allows enemy's forces to base on its territory. I would claim such state as my ennemy's ally. Oh yes. Finnish pilots flew with German crews on action. For me it would be a very good excuse for declaring war.
Generally speaking you could write two pages shorter article instead of this stuff about "bad" Soviets and "good" Finns.
Finishing my post I have to mension that part about combats is interesting.
In my opinion you could write an interesting book about Finnish-Soviet aerial combats...but without this political nonsense about "neutral" and "Innocent" Finland and treacherour Soviet Union.

Regards

Dominik
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  #6  
Old 19th November 2006, 19:30
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

Hi
Dominik
The point is, that you have very fast not exactly read what I had written, and you attached to me some opinion, which are not in this text

If you talking from Stalin point of view and accept his movments, there is for you 100% acceptable + 100% obvious, that there were no any broken agreements with Polish or Finns goverments.
So: German-Russian pact on 23 VIII 1939 was very good for Hitler and Stalin (and it was for their powers).

Dominik's text: "Other thin which is interesting in your opinion is that USSR "illegaly" attacked Finland...sorry if I had been Stalin I would have attacked country which allows enemy's forces to base on its territory."

The same case was with Finland in IX 39 and in VI 41. Fro Stalin any earlier political state's agremments did not count (witj Poland and Finnish governments), only the bigger power counts in both case.

Fine, but this is direct broken own words and own promises (signed on the paper). In some countries people say about such behaviours as a treachery. The people, states, which act this way do not have any respect among others poples/nations.

Russian had attacked independend state without any earlier notification/ declatration of war. Instead of such political declaration/move Soviet bombers had attacked Finnish terittory, then Finns declared war against Soviet.


Dominik's text: "Finnish pilots flew with German crews on action. For me it would be a very good excuse for declaring war."

You attached to me some opinion, which are not given in this text. I do not write, that Finnish and German crews went toghter into action versus Russian in VI 1941, which is total nonsens (?).
.
I also do not know any military action (attack) taken by FAF against/over Soviet targets or by Finns land forces before 25 VI 41.
A few Finns flown in German planes (Ju 88) over Soviets targets but it was LW planes, this is not the same. German had used Finn's air bases for return flights (refueling) but not for re-arming and again, fresh attack over Leningrad or Kronstad ect..


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

PS
Thanks for the comments.
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  #7  
Old 12th January 2007, 10:30
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominik View Post
I have read this article and I think that it is useless and full of information which has nothing to do the title.
First you have written that Soviets attacked Finladnd without declaring war and few lines later it is written that Finland declared war upon USSR. So where is the point? Other thin which is interesting in your opinion is that USSR "illegaly" attacked Finland...sorry if I had been Stalin I would have attacked country which allows enemy's forces to base on its territory. I would claim such state as my ennemy's ally. Oh yes. Finnish pilots flew with German crews on action. For me it would be a very good excuse for declaring war.
Generally speaking you could write two pages shorter article instead of this stuff about "bad" Soviets and "good" Finns.
Finishing my post I have to mension that part about combats is interesting.
In my opinion you could write an interesting book about Finnish-Soviet aerial combats...but without this political nonsense about "neutral" and "Innocent" Finland and treacherour Soviet Union.

Regards

Dominik
Hello,

this article is typical political motivated point of view of some authors from Poland(and other countries of east Europe) after 1990. This is supported by some russian-born authors such Suvorov with his history books, that does not accept by any serioses historians.
I will see, as any other counties will be react, in such situation as was USSR and Finnland. It is clear, what the KGr806 and IV/LG1 do in Finnland at that time. And it is clear, that Finnland was involved in Germans war plans from the beginning of planing. I assume, that after winter war 1940 this was fully normal for Finnland and they want own lost area back, but I can not accept that the USSR atack in june 41 was no provokated agression !!!


Best regards


P.S. I could only reccomend the Liddel Hart book about WW2. After reading of this book some "victims" of the WW2 appeared not in good ligth.
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Last edited by kalender1973; 12th January 2007 at 11:23.
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  #8  
Old 13th January 2007, 22:20
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalender1973 View Post
this article is typical political motivated point of view of some authors from Poland(and other countries of east Europe) after 1990. This is supported by some russian-born authors such Suvorov with his history books, that does not accept by any serioses historians.
Quite a risky thesis. Actually, a number of serious historians found several documents supporting the thesis. But it is easier to call them politically motivated.
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Old 14th January 2007, 11:24
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski View Post
Quite a risky thesis. Actually, a number of serious historians found several documents supporting the thesis. But it is easier to call them politically motivated.
Hi Franek,

could you say me this sources ? I hope, the author name is not Adolf Hitler and his appeal to the german soldiers on the east front...

And BTW, this mail I found in my mail box today and is response to my statement from 12. januar:

"Hi
Can you support his claims with any solid critics, or you want to mainly spread a "red's foam" on the net?

Second could be nice to know your real name as you want to write any such claims, if you want to look credible not idiot?

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski, an authhor of this story and not only."


I found, that is "very fine form" of conversation and discussion of the author of this article :-)))
Best regards,
Igor.
P.S. I don't know, that Sir Liddel Hart spread "red foam" in his book :-)))
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Old 14th January 2007, 16:04
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article

Hello, friends!

On 22Jun1941 between 07:38 and 10:25 (3 days before the air raids in question) finnish submarines Vetehinen, Vesihiisi and Iku-Turso laid mine barrages in Soviet territorial waters. A bit strange action for a neutral state.

Best regards,
Andrey Kuznetsov
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