German night fighter top aces by plane

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Russ Fahey

Hello Michael,

The listing of Krause as top scorer with the Do-217 is probably not correct.
The top scorer in this type is more likely Rudolf Schoenert. He made at least 27 of his 65 total claims with the Do-217. 25 of these night victories were scored in Russia with I/NJG 100,while the other 2 were acheived in the west.
I hope this helps clarify the issue.

Russ

(Source:Richter FB- Richter flew as BF to Schoenert.)

Good evening Russ,

for Schoenert I have 31 I./NJG100 kills in my list. What type of aircraft was he flying for the remaining 6 kills?

Kind regards,

Michael

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by focusfocus

Hi Mr.Hector

According Mr.Boiten (new nachtjagd series 2018)

20/21/april 1943 Lancaster W4756 460°Sqd. VNE:ASM

Michel

Cheers Michel,

I am more than happy to admit that my own database might be lacking in that area due to my own fault (lack of thoroughness or another oversight) or due to the sources I was quoting being not quite up to date.
Either way, you've helped us move forward in our knowledge of Schoenert's opponents

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Sorry Peter but the numbers are the thing that must be proved. Historians are supposed to work on the basis of evidence, as much of it as they can find, and there is clear evdience that, overall, claims in aerial combat are far higher than documented losses. If follows that not everyone got what he said/thought he did and the relatively few "aces" who accounted for the bulk of the aircraft shot down are likely to have been wrong quite often — humans may even tell lies sometimes, or so I've heard. One can reasonably question the totals credited to Hartmann, Johnson, Sakia, Bong, Kozhedub et al and still recognise that they were extraordinarily successful pilots.

Perhaps the message to Peter is:
It's not always about RIDICULING the numbers (...certainly not what I am here to do...)
It's about being careful not to unquestioningly ACCEPT the numbers without checking.

What should we do? Rejoice that we now have the chance to check by comparing archival sources...

....Or keep quoting the cheap, pulpy, hagiographic, plagiarised sources that we have been told time and time and time and time and time again not to quote as if they're the greatest thing ever written on the subject...?

It's not something we need to do any more unless we are fanboys that just ever so desperately need to cling to our boyhood heroes. Some pilots claimed with astonishing accuracy (refer you to threads discussing Lipfert elsewhere on this forum) and others with astonishing inaccuracy (refer you to where Hartmann is discussed - sometimes in the self-same threads....)

And to put my money where my mouth is...

...We couldn't have done this a couple of short decades ago:

Wolfgang Lippert

SPAIN
1st Claim
15.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Algar
Day's losses include Felipe Cirujeda Esteve of 1a Esc, Grupo 26; Jose Redondo of 1a Esc apparently by collision with Bf109; one I-15 lost to a collision with an I-16 (pilot of I-16 named Pastor)

2nd Claim
23.7.38 I-16 "Rata"
From 17.7.38 to 23.7.38 there were nine I-16s lost and seven I-15s

3rd Claim
14.8.38 I-16 "Rata" Probably an aircraft of Grupo 21

4th Claim
4.10.38 I-16 "Rata" Grupo 21. 6a Esc definitely involved in the day’s combats

5th claim
29.12.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Lerida
At least one I-16 lost this date, pilot named Diaz. Don’t know if there were any actual I-15 losses…

WORLD WAR TWO
6th claim
30.9.39/1445 MS 406 Buedingen/Bischmisheim/S of Guedingen
GC III/3. Two claims for the aircraft of Lt. Patroux WIA, aircraft written off (slight overclaiming, also claimed by Erich Kuhlmann)

7th claim
7.4.40/1250 Hurricane ("Spitfire")
SW of Diedenhofen 73 sqn. F/O G F Brotchie baled out slightly WIA

8th claim
10.5.40/1355 Curtiss Hawk
SE of Metz
Losses include No. 26 of GC I/5, Sgt. Preux forcelanded, 2 others from same unit damaged (return fire). GC II/4 lost SLt. Trixier-Vignancourt (damaged Bf110),Sgt. Antoine De La Chapelle (He111?) and Ballin (attributed to a Bf110)

9th claim
14.5.40/1930 Wellington Sedan
AASF or BEF Air Component/Bomber command (probably a misidentified Blenheim)

10th claim
15.5.40/1613 MB 152 ("MB 151")
S of Charleville No. 189 of GC 3/1. Adj-Chef R Autier KIA

11th claim
20.5.40/1835 Curtiss Hawk Noyon
Day's Hawk losses include No. 38 of GC II/4, Capt. Malaval struck the ground evading Bf109s and Sgt. Forzy in No. 86 of GC I/5 (I/4?), POW (This one is said to be Forzy)

12th claim
3.6.40/1420 MB 152 (Somehow mistaken for a "Spitfire")
S of Paris Serial unknown of GC II/1. Sgt. Guitard baled out badly WIA

13th claim
9.6.40/1450 Curtiss Hawk Proult
No. 218 of GC II/4. S/Lt. Camille Plubeau baled out WIA (burnt)

14th claim
16.8.40/1900 Spitfire I
Probably 234 sqn. Four losses: R6967 of F/O K S Dewhurst baled out safely, X4016 of F/O F H P Conner baled out safely and rescued by Royal Navy launch, N3242 was damaged (pilot not known) and R6896 was also damaged, F/L Paterson Clarence Hughes (Australian) unhurt

15th claim
26.8.40/1735 Spitfire
Portsmouth area
Another claim for X4187 of 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn? F/O C Hector Maclean crashlanded WIA (overclaiming). Or 234 sqn, two losses: X4023 of P/O P W Horten bellylanded safely and P9494 of Sgt. M C B Boddington forcelanded

16th claim
2.9.40/0855 Hurricane I Possibly V7352 of 249 sqn. P/O R E N E Wynn WIA, aircraft only damaged

17th claim
7.9.40/1905 Spitfire London
603 "City of Edinburgh" sqn: P9467 of Sgt. A R Sarre baled out WIA over Thames Estuary at 1739 BT, L1057 of P/O A Peter Pease bellylanded safely, X4250/XT-X of S/L George L Denholm forcelanded safely, N3196 of P/O Basil George "Stapme" Stapleton forcelanded safely

18th claim
17.9.40/1648 Maidstone
607 sqn, 501 sqn or 1 sqn RCAF? 607 sqn, 2 losses: P3933 of Sgt. John Lansdell, KIA and P3929 of P/O G H Welford WIA and bellylanded at Tuesnoad farm (both generally attributed to Neumann) 501 sqn, 2 losses: V7357 of Sgt. J H "Ginger" Lacey baled out safely and P3820 of Sgt. Edward J Egan, MIA-KIA (over Ashford according to British sources). 1 sqn RCAF lost P3080 of F/O A D Nesbitt baled out WIA and P3876 of F/O R Smither KIA in combat over Tunbridge

19th and 20th claims
25.10.40/1305 and 1306 2 x Hurricanes London
249 sqn. 2 losses: P3615 of Sgt. J M B Heard baled out WIA and V7409 of Adj. H Boquillard (Free French) forcelanded WIA

21st claim
1.11.40/0940 (0820 BT) Hurricane I Canterbury V6879 of 605 sqn. S/L Archibald Ashmore McKellar DSO DFC and Bar KIA

22nd and 23rd claims
22.6.41/0415 and 0418 MiG ("I-17") and I-15
NE of Wizna/S of Knysyyn
129 IAP, 9 SAD known to have been in action against II/JG 27 this day. Losses include Ml.Lts. N F Erchenko and A A Radugin.
NOTE: At least one source says the second victory was an unconfirmed claim for an SB-3

24th claim
25.6.41/1215 SB (mistaken for a "DB-3")
3 AE, 128 SBAP, 2 losses. Lt Koshelev – St. Leytenant Polishchuk – Ml. Serzhant Rakov and Leytenant Bakhvalov –Serzhant Alekseev (the other was claimed by Alfred Heidel)

25th claim
23.10.41/0930 Hurricane II S of Buqbuq
This one said to be BD829 of 1 sqn SAAF, Lt. K M McKenzie baled out WIA. Z2314 was also brought down, 2/Lt. W S Milner bellylanded WIA (appears to be unclaimed)

26th claim
22.11.41/1020 P-40 Tomahawk IIB
SE of Ain el Gazala
3 sqn, RAAF losses include P/O Eric Hall Lane KIA in AM378/A(?), F/L John Henry William Saunders in AN416 and F/O Malcolm Hector Watson in AK510. (Schneider and Redlich also claimed)

27th claim
22.11.41/1630 P-40 Tomahawk IIB
NW of Bir Hacheim
3 sqn RAAF and 112 sqn. 112 lost Sgt. Henry George Burney, RAAF in AM390/GA-W (returned). 3 lost Sgt. Ronald Henry Simes in AM507/Z also returned whilst F/L Lindsay Eric Shaw Knowles AN410 , F/O William Kloster in AK390 and P/O Lawton "Sammy" Lees AN305/E(?) were all KIA as was F/O F Fischer in AK407. F/O H G Roberts in AN373 POW

28th claim
22.11.41/1645 Wellington IC
NW of Bir Hacheim
109 sqn, one lost: X9988 of Sgt R E Nicholson and crew all KIA, plus another damaged

29th claim
23.11.41/1225 Hurricane S of Bir Hacheim RNFS. Possibly overclaiming, 1 loss at this time: V7308 SubLt. Anthony John Claude Willis KIA. However, one of these could have been a P-40 of 250 sqn, Sgt. Donald Mair Palethorpe RCAF KIA or S/L Morris damaged (Edu Neumann claimed at the same time)

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Michel

Many thanks for posting the information regarding the identity of the Lancaster claimed by Schönert on 21 April 1943. However, it may be that this aircraft was Lancaster I (W4956) "UV-J" of 460 Sqn, RAAF flown by F/Sgt WF Pridgeon, all killed, as the unit lost three aircraft that night (according to Strike and Return by Firkins) and this is the closest match to the serial you provided. Any comments or corrections are appreciated!

Horrido!

Leo

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hi Michel

Many thanks for posting the information regarding the identity of the Lancaster claimed by Schönert on 21 April 1943. However, it may be that this aircraft was Lancaster I (W4956) "UV-J" of 460 Sqn, RAAF flown by F/Sgt WF Pridgeon, all killed, as the unit lost three aircraft that night (according to Strike and Return by Firkins) and this is the closest match to the serial you provided. Any comments or corrections are appreciated!

Horrido!

Leo

The other two losses being

W4325/UV-O, crew of F/S R S Hogben all KIA

W4330/UV-H, crew of F/S James all KIA

...You won't find that in your John Weal...

[Nick Hector]

But anyways... Here is some real help for Knusel, since that is what the forum is all about:

Prinz Heinrich zu Sayn-Wittgenstein

1st claim
7.5.42/0113 Blenheim IV 40km W of Walcheren V6382/WV- of 18 sqn. P/O H P Palmer, Sgt W E Lindsell and Sgt E J Andrews all KIA

3rd claim
31.5.42/0136 Manchester I
L7429/EA- of 49 CF. P/O P N Floyd and one other KIA, remaining five crewmen all POW

4th claim
2.6.42/0145 Halifax II between Bossut and Grez-Doiceau
W1064/MP-J of 76 sqn. Sgt. Thomas Ronald Augustus West and one other KIA. 2 POW and 2 evaded. Boiten says probably W7698 of 78 sqn

5th and 6th claims
6.6.42/0116 and 0150 Wellingtons
HF915/DX- of 57 sqn, Sgt W J Barnes RNZAF and X3486/VR-U of 419 sqn RCAF, F/S J M Dutton both crews all KIA

7th claim
9.6.42/0305 Wellington Ann Jacoba Polder Z1573/AA- of 75 "New Zealand" sqn. P/O G E Murdoch and crew all KIA

8th claim
17.6.42/0309 Halifax ("B-24 Liberator")
20km NW of Leiden
Boiten says probably R9530/DY-J of 102 "Ceylon" sqn? P/O Charles Rae Barr RCAF and crew all KIA (see above)

9th claim
17.6.42/0323 Wellington III 15km NNW of Leiden
Probably X3723/VR-H of 419 sqn RCAF. F/S Arnold Harvey Harris and crew all KIA

11th claim
30.6.42/0326 Wellington
Possibly Z1618/DX- of 57 sqn. Crew of Sgt Moore, three men KIA when ditched off Dutch coast.

12th claim
3.7.42/0305 Stirling I North Sea, 50km W of Rotterdam @ 300m
Possibly N3718/HA-C of 218 sqn. P/O G G Jeary and crew all KIA

13th claim
24.7.42/0310 Lancaster I
207 sqn, two losses: R5632/EM-N of F/S William George Hawes RAAF and R5867/EM-T of P/O John Justin Neville McCarthy RNZAF. Both crews all KIA

15th claim
1.8.42/0317 Hampden I Between Oisterwijk and Moergestel
N9062/GL-W3 of 14 OTU. Sgt. E F Collins RAAF and 2 others POW. Other crewman KIA

16th claim
1.8.42/0330 Halifax
Probably W1190 of 158 sqn. S/L F P Hewitt OBE and crew all POW

17th claim
7.8.42/0415 Halifax II 10km off Hoek van Holland
W1237/EY-P of 78 sqn. F/O J M J A d'Ursel Chevalier of the Order Leopold and Croixe de Guerre (Belgian) and crew all KIA

19th and 20th claims
10.9.42/2315 and 2350
Stirling and “B-24 Liberator” One of these was probably R9170 of 149 "East India" sqn. F/S A F Potts and crew all KIA except one man POW

21st claim
10.9.42/2354 Stirling ("B-24 Liberator") 10km E of Schouwen
BF351/HA-C of 218 sqn. F/S G E Milligan RCAF and crew all KIA

22nd claim
16.9.42/2252 Wellington IC? ("Stirling")
Possibly DV941/G of 26 OTU. Sgt L W Streeter RNZAF and crew all KIA

23rd claim
29/30.11.42 Stirling I R9150 of 7 sqn. F/L R M Smith and crew all KIA except two men POW

24th claim
9/10.12.42 Lancaster I Possibly W4764/WS-K of 9 sqn. F/S L H Jordan RCAF and crew all KIA

24th and 25th claims
16.4.43/2313 and 2315 2 x DB-3s Insterburg-Danzig sector
8 GAPDD. Crew of Gen. Mikhail Nikolayevich Urutin Navigator-Colonel Hevesi Akos Akoshevich and Gunner/WOP Sergeant Aleksandr K Garankin

19/20.6.43 Halifax II
Probably JD107/EQ-Y of 405 sqn RCAF. P/O R A Symes BEM and two others POW, remaining four crewmen all KIA

23.6.43/0209 Stirling III
BF572/HA-K of 218 sqn, F/S J B H Smith RAAF and crew all KIA except one man POW

25.6.43/0225 Lancaster I 30km W of Katwijk aan See (PQ 05 Ost S/HH-2.3a) @ 3200m
LM327 of 97 sqn or EE127 of 156 sqn

25.6.43/0250 Stirling III 40km W of Scheveningen (PQ 05 Ost S/HH-4.3.e) @ 250m
EF392/MG-N of 7 sqn, S/L J R Savage RAAF and crew all KIA

25.6.43/0309 Stirling 20km W of Katwijk aan Zee (PQ 05 Ost S/HJ-1.4.g) @ 850m
EE883/BU-T of 214 sqn, Sgt C K Miller and crew all KIA

25.6.43/0335 Wellington
HZ518/QO-A of 432 sqn RCAF, Sgt J J C Mercier and crew all KIA except one man POW-DOW

14.7.43/2205 Pe-8 ("TB-7") W of Bolkhov @ 4800m
Blue 12 of 746 AP. Pilot named Modestov, 7 crew KIA. Boiten says it was crew of Lt. Souchin, 890 APDD

17.7.43/2126 DB-3F 50km NE of Orel @ 2000m
3 GAP ADD. Pilot was only survivor

20.7.43/2138 Pe-8 ("TB-7") 10km NE of Orel @ 4000m
Red 14 of 746 DBAP/45 DBAD. Kapitan Vladimir Ponomarenko and six others baled out, five other crewmen MIA

20.7.43/2150 TB-7 15km NE of Orel @ 4000m
Red 15 of 746 DBAP (Another source says 890 DBAP)/45 DBAD. Crew of Kaptitan Ugryumov

20.7.43/2155 TB-7 10km NE of Orel @ 4000m
Blue 14 of 890 DBAP/45 DBAD. Crew of Kapitan Vikharev

22.7.43/2225 TB-7 5km SE of Seschinskaya @ 4000m
Nr 42019 of 890 APDD. Crew all KIA

8.8.43/2150 DB-3F 3km NE of Star (PQ 44342) @ 2000m
(Rudolf Dueding claimed one as well) One of these was possibly the crew of 10 GAPDD. Navigator Kolesnichenko was the only crewman able to bale out safely. 19 GAPDD also suffered a loss

22.10.43/2110 Halifax V ("Viermot") 10-20km NNW of Kassel @ 4000m
Probably LK664/MP-U of 76 sqn. Lt. L E Hulthin RNAF and crew all KIA

2.1.44/0200 and 0218 2 x Lancasters Near Berlin
Possibly EE129 of 7 sqn, JB548 of 57 sqn or LM377 of 61 sqn

2.1.44/0220 Lancaster III Near Berlin (crashed between Holtrup and Schweringen)
Probably LM372 of 467 sqn RAAF. Previously said by Boiten and Bowman to be DV189/BQ-T2 of 550 sqn. F/O James Gilmour Bryson and one other KIA, remaining five crewmen all POW

2.1.44/0300 Lancaster Near Berlin
Either JB740 of 100 sqn or DV190 of 626 sqn

2.1.44/0310 Lancaster III Near Berlin
Probably JA711/WS-A of 9 sqn. P/O Geoffrey Ward and crew all KIA

14.1.44/2000 Lancaster I
Possibly ME585UL-H2 of 576 sqn. Sgt. Donald George Mann and crew all KIA

21.1.44/2210 Lancaster III
Near Magdeburg (crashed at Altmerdingsen, near Burgdorf)
Said by Boiten and Bowman to be ED547/PO-M of 467 sqn. F/L Leo Braham Patkin. (Not listed by Chorley)

21.1.44/2315 Lancaster III ("Halifax") near Magdeburg Probably JA912/GT-O of 156 sqn. F/L Kilvington DFC RAAF and crew all POW

[PMoz99]

Nick, and Nick, my point here is that we are not ignorant to the fact that overclaiming occurred. So please stop treating members like ignorant dopes who are "gormlessly gawping at names with victory tallies beside them".
But for someone to regularly hijack threads and start a bombardment of unproven allegations is getting annoying. And yes, I still say they are unproven. Many records are burned, lie at the bottom of oceans, and so on. Just because you can't find a record for something doesn't mean it didn't happen. Indeed, it seems it took less than 24 hours for one such allegation to be shown to be wrong.
History itself is no different - the victors get to write it and that doesn't mean it's truth. Sometimes they even pass legislation to criminalise negative arguments. Sometimes it's written from only one point of view and is misleading. But it's what we have.
So sure, we keep in our minds that the numbers may not be 100%. Perhaps if someone disagrees with those numbers they should do something constructive like rewrite all the lists to their satisfaction and publish them so they can be scrutinised, rather than hijack threads as and when they feel like it.
Peter

[Russ Fahey]

Hello Michael, Nick H., Nick B.,Peter, etc.!,
Unfortunately, the FB doesn't specify what type of Do-215 Schoenert was flying.
Regarding Schoenert's victories, I was only referring to claims that he made, not the "validity" of such.
Jeez, I didn't want to open that can of worms again!
Russ

[PMoz99]

With you, Russ
Peter

[Russ Fahey]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good evening Russ,

for Schoenert I have 31 I./NJG100 kills in my list. What type of aircraft was he flying for the remaining 6 kills?

Kind regards,

Michael

Hello Michael, Peter, Nick H., Nick M., etc.!,

Shoenert used a Ju-88 for his other victories with I./NJG100 in the east. These victories were scored on 12.10.43, 13.10.43, and 27.10.43. In each case he was flying Ju-88 "C9+BE".

Russ