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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#21
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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I have analysed all Bewegungsmeldungen that are available on Michael Holm's site and compiled several Luftwaffe loss tables. As for example: Luftwaffe losses on Eastern front: Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Mar43 2496 315 291 324 930 Apr43 2813 201 269 214 684 May43 2844 332 286 226 844 Jun43 2955 240 211 202 653 Jul43 3094 682 355 247 1284 Aug43 2752 461 368 306 1135 Sept43 2432 365 252 341 958 Oct43 2322 298 257 285 840 Nov43 2353 195 170 185 550 Dec43 2464 137 118 141 396 Total: ---- 3226 2577 2471 8274 Specifically for day-fighter units (Stab, II. and III./JG 3; Stab, II., III. and 13(Z)./JG 5; I./JG 26; JG 51 (excepting II./JG 51); JG 52; JG 54 (excepting III./JG 54)) Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Mar43 478 97 131 27 195 Apr43 526 43 103 58 204 May43 570 103 100 60 263 Jun43 585 75 62 36 173 Jul43 529 204 131 37 372 Aug43 464 129 130 38 297 Sept43 420 93 73 40 206 Oct43 425 83 91 43 217 Nov43 415 52 47 47 146 Dec43 416 47 40 21 108 Total: ---- 926 908 407 2241 These figures are not complete though, because Bewegungsmeldungen data are partially or entirely missing for some units (13.(slow)/JG 52, NSGr 1, NSGr 2 etc.) Regards, Maksim |
#22
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
Here is what I have for other units on Eastern front:
Night-fighters (IV./NJG 5; NJG 100; NJG 200; NJ Schw. Luftflotte 1; NJ Schw. Luftflotte 6): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 58 1 5 2 8 Aug43 54 1 12 9 22 Total: -- 2 17 11 30 Zerstoerer units (I. and 10.(N)/ZG 1; ZG 2): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 66 14 5 12 31 Aug43 7 0 0 0 Total: -- 14 5 12 31 Bomber units (III., IV. and 9.(Eis)/KG 1; KG 3; KG 4 (excepting I. and IV./KG 4); KG 27 (excepting IV./KG 27); I./KG 30; KG 51 (excepting I./KG 51); KG 53 (excepting IV. and 15./KG 53); KG 55 (excepting IV./KG 55); I./KG 100; Fliegerfuehrer Nord-Ost): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 766 174 79 74 327 Aug43 713 97 100 107 304 Total: --- 271 179 181 631 Sturzkampf units (StG 1; StG 2; III./StG 3; StG 5; StG 77; 9./StG 151): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 448 115 38 66 219 Aug43 404 103 53 66 222 Total: --- 218 91 132 441 Ground-attack units (SchG 1; 4. and 8.(Pz)/SchG 2; Fuehrer der Pz.Jg.Staffeln): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 165 59 40 9 108 Aug43 114 48 13 21 82 Total: --- 107 53 30 190 Reconnaissance units (AGr 11; 1. and 2.(H)/12; AGr 13; 3.(H) and 4.(F)/14; AGr 21; AGr 22; AGr 23; AGr 31; AGr 32; 2. and 4.(H)/33; AGr 41; AGr 100; 4.(F)/121; 4. and 5.(F)/122; 1., 2. and 3.(F)/ObdL; Stab NAGr 1; 1./NAGr 2; NAGr 4; Stab NAGr 11; Stab NAGr 12; Nachtkette NAGr 15; 1., 2., 3. and 4.(F)/Nacht; 2./NAGr 16; 1.(F)/124; Fernaufklaerungskette Lappland; Stab NAGr 9; Wekusta 1): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 506 56 41 33 130 Aug43 458 61 44 43 148 Total: --- 117 85 76 278 Maritime units (3. Minensuchstaffel; Stab, 1. and 3./SAGr 125; SAGr 127): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 58 0 4 6 10 Aug43 60 1 5 12 18 Total: -- 1 9 18 28 Transport units (I./TG 1; TG 2 (excepting II./TG 2); TG 3; TG 4 (excepting IV./TG 4); Tr.Sta Fliegerfuehrer Nord-Ost; Tr.Sta I. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta IV. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta VIII. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta des Feldluftgau 25; Tr.Sta Luftflotte 6): Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 496 58 11 2 71 Aug43 471 22 13 21 56 Total: --- 80 24 23 127 |
#23
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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The lists you provided raise interesting questions. I presume you relied on Michael Holm's data for the location of Luftwaffe units. That should introduce significant errors, since Henry de Zeng and Douglas Stankey have demonstrated in their books that Holm's location data is often erroneous and incomplete. That's not to criticise you, since Hooton's data is from the same source and should suffer from exactly the same problem! There is of course also the problem of monthly data being provided in the tables, which does not account for some units losing aircraft in different theatres in the same month. Be that as it may, the data is still very interesting. I'll be back within the hour with a comparison of your monthly data to Hooton's. The data, from the same source, vary by quite a bit! |
#24
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
And below are Hotoon's monthly loss totals for the Eastern Front for May 1942 to December 1944 inclusive. Apologies for the length, but I hope you appreciate the information!
Maksim, I've compared your figures with Hooton's for the relevant months of 1943. The data is in the second table in this post. Your numbers are consistently higher. I think that is because Ted Hooton somehow found a method of refining the data from the Bewegunsmeldungen. I wonder how he did it. Table 1: Month Year EA Accident Total Ratio of EA to Accident May 1942 229 227 456 1.01 June 1942 256 234 490 1.09 July 1942 317 262 579 1.21 August 1942 392 265 657 1.48 September 1942 346 208 554 1.66 October 1942 217 160 377 1.36 November 1942 204 186 390 1.10 December 1942 225 130 355 1.73 January 1943 264 111 375 2.38 February 1943 226 160 386 1.41 March 1943 250 220 470 1.14 April 1943 147 168 315 0.88 May 1943 298 222 520 1.34 June 1943 209 170 379 1.23 July 1943 554 283 837 1.96 August 1943 386 296 682 1.30 September 1943 307 205 512 1.50 October 1943 272 199 471 1.37 November 1943 179 142 321 1.26 December 1943 109 92 201 1.18 January 1944 235 216 451 1.09 February 1944 152 155 307 0.98 March 1944 197 228 425 0.86 April 1944 352 278 630 1.27 May 1944 208 267 475 0.78 June 1944 238 194 432 1.23 July 1944 562 418 980 1.34 August 1944 386 270 656 1.43 September 1944 209 121 330 1.73 October 1944 316 186 502 1.70 November 1944 79 108 187 0.73 December 1944 135 226 361 0.60 Table 2: Month Year EA Accident Total M Total M bigger by March 1943 250 220 470 606 136 April 1943 147 168 315 470 155 May 1943 298 222 520 618 98 June 1943 209 170 379 451 72 July 1943 554 283 837 1037 200 August 1943 386 296 682 829 147 September 1943 307 205 512 617 105 October 1943 272 199 471 555 84 November 1943 179 142 321 365 44 December 1943 109 92 201 255 54 |
#25
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
Well, no. It seems like Khazanov and Medved have made their own calculations, using the same source.
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#26
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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In any case, suddenly a big question mark has appeared over all this data. There is a link to similar threads at the bottom of this one, which is the source of the question. In the "Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia" thread dating from 2005, Christer Bergström wrote that "The website you refer to lists all aircraft above 10 % damage degree." The website in question is Michael Holm's. However, this raises the problem of the significance of the "repair" category. How can it exist if the "combat" and "non-combat" categories include damaged, as well as destroyed, aircraft? Can anyone answer this question? |
#27
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
Wouldn't 'in repair' mean a/c that are having maintenance done on them.
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#28
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
We need someone who knows to provide the answer to that, but I would suggest that if they are in the "Abgang" column, they would be leaving the unit for repairs, not undergoing routine maintenance.
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#29
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
Reparatur is in the Zugang (received) column.
Überholung is in the Abgang (sent out) column. |
#30
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
Kutscha, granted, but they must mean one and the same thing, since in both cases aircraft come in from or are sent to an organisation outside the unit itself.
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