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  #1  
Old 25th December 2004, 09:52
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

In 1944 Erich Hartmann Claimed only 1 Mustang –rather than the previously reported 6-7. This single claim was submitted on 24 Jun 44 –anyone venture to indicate whom his victim might have been?

Thanks
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Old 5th January 2005, 12:30
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Jan Bobek Jan Bobek is offline
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Mustang victims

hi,

you probably know that 325. FG lost two ships:

318. FS "42" Joseph W. Harper MIA 42-103599
319. FS "75" Howard F. Welch MIA 42-103552

relevant MACR could show more details in terms of time and circumstances.

According to Tony Wood´s list there is at least one confirmed Mustang claim of SG 2 pilot and two claims confirmed to 9./JG 52 including Hartmann. SG 2 and JG 52 claims have aproximately 30 minutes difference.

Horrido

Jan
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Old 2nd May 2009, 15:54
Cantacuzino Cantacuzino is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

Quote:
This single claim was submitted on 24 Jun 44 –anyone venture to indicate whom his victim might have been?

Quote:
you probably know that 325. FG lost two ships:

318. FS "42" Joseph W. Harper MIA 42-103599
319. FS "75" Howard F. Welch MIA 42-103552

The victim of Erich Hartmann on 24 june'44 was Joseph W. Harper.
The witness of the fight was romanian baterry nr 60 Krupp wich reported that one of their projectiles exploded near right side of a Mustang. The Mustang began to dive with white smoke on tail. At aprox 1500m height, two german fighters set the Mustang on fire and crashed near Loloiasca village (Prahova county). The pilot bail out and was interned in hospital of Urlati village due to his burns at head.
From the list of Tony Woods there were 3 P-51 claimed by germans over Romania that day, but only one crashed on romanian soil (Harper's P-51) the other pilot from 325th FG, Howard Welch crashed near Pesaro,Adriatic shore (Italy).

24.06.44 Fw. Dieter Voigt Stab II./SG 2 P-51 Mustang £ 65 331: at 7.000 m.09.25 FilmC. 2032/IAnerk: Nr. 24
24.06.44 Oblt. Erich Hartmann 9./JG 52 Mustang £ 65 136: at 3.000 m. 09.50 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 454
24.06.44 Fhj.Fw. Hans-Joachim Birkner 9./JG 52 Mustang £ 65 133: at 6.000 m. 09.56 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 455

In the MACR report was mentioned that Harper engaged in fight at 9.20 hour, with 6 Meserschmitt's.

Attached Harper's MACR files

Cheers
Dan.

Last edited by Cantacuzino; 2nd May 2009 at 20:49.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 22:05
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

Dan,

thanks for your help in clearing up an aviation mystery!

Does anyone know, if Hartmann's claim location of 65 136 matches up with the reported crash site ~10 miles E of Ploesti? Also a Time Zone Querry, does Hartmann's timing of after 9 a.m. (0950) mean the same post 9 a.m. time given by Loftus (after 0920)?

Thanks in Advance,

Rob Romero
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Old 3rd May 2009, 02:38
kennethklee kennethklee is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Romero View Post
In 1944 Erich Hartmann Claimed only 1 Mustang –rather than the previously reported 6-7. This single claim was submitted on 24 Jun 44 –anyone venture to indicate whom his victim might have been?

Thanks
Can I ask a question tangential to this topic? Largely due to the books of Toliver and Constable, I have assumed Hartmann was credited with 7 American-flown P-51 Mustangs amongst his 352 victories. Has this data changed? Is Hartmann now only credited with 1 Mustang in his victory total?

Thanks,
Kenneth
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Old 3rd May 2009, 05:03
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

337 of Hartmann's victories are listed in Tony Wood's listing of Jagdwaffe Victories; only 1 is for a Mustang.

Rob Romero
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Old 3rd May 2009, 06:43
Cantacuzino Cantacuzino is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

Quote:
Does anyone know, if Hartmann's claim location of 65 136 matches up with the reported crash site ~10 miles E of Ploesti?
I don't know what 65 136 stand for, but the map coordinates (44.58, 26.17) of Loloiasca village (mentioned in romanian AA report) match with coordinates from Harper's MACR ( 44.50, 26.00)
The small village Loloiasca is part of comunne Tomsani located south-est of Urlati village (where Harper was hospitalized).
Attached the map of the area.

Dan.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 07:03
Cantacuzino Cantacuzino is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

Quote:
Dan,

thanks for your help in clearing up an aviation mystery!
Hi Rob

Glad to help in this issue, but the mistery is not complet cleared.

Quote:
24.06.44 Fw. Dieter Voigt Stab II./SG 2 P-51 Mustang £ 65 331: at 7.000 m.09.25 FilmC. 2032/IAnerk: Nr. 24
24.06.44 Oblt. Erich Hartmann 9./JG 52 Mustang £ 65 136: at 3.000 m. 09.50 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 454
24.06.44 Fhj.Fw. Hans-Joachim Birkner 9./JG 52 Mustang £ 65 133: at 6.000 m. 09.56 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. 455
From Tony Wood's list we can take out only the Bf-109 pilots claims (as Loftus mentioned that Harper engaged 6 Bf-109)
What about Birkner victory ? Could be a shared victory with Hartmann ?.
In romanian AA report was mentioned that 2 german fighters were pursued the diving Mustang and set him on fire.
As I read, Hans -Joachim Birkner (credited with 117 victories) was some times Hartman wingman. See the link.
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/birkner.html

Dan.
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Old 4th May 2009, 13:31
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

Kenneth

I wouldn’t use the Toliver and Constable (T&C) Book as the Gospel in respect to Erich Hartmann’s claims. The T&C book that I have in my possesion was written in 1970 with a revision in 1985. A lot has happened since then, including the finding of some of the RLM claims files that have been copied onto the Net by Tony Woods.

By T&Cs own admission the first 150 claims listed were taken from Hartmann’s first logbook however the remaining 202 are sourced from III/JG52 records and personal letters. These claims mostly lack detail and 28 of those are in a date range only.

The Tony Wood’s list was translated from the RLM microfilms. Robs states he has 337 claims, I’ve actually got 324 but I believe 3 of these are either double up or incorrect, unfortunately I don’t have a copy of the original to confirm this.

Now, when comparing the Tony Wood’s list with the T&C list, you would expect that the first 150 claims to match as they were taken from the RLM listing and Hartman’s first logbook. This is not the case, they don’t! Of the 150 claims 7 differ on dates, 8 differ on time and 22 differ on type. This is without looking at location in detail. That means only 113 of the claims match. This would indicate some translation errors of handwritten documents and possible clerical error.

For the remaining 202, 171 claims are listed in the Wood’s list (RLM) with the remaining 31 claims not listed at all.

Of the 171 (Wood’s) listed claims when compared to the T&C list, we note that 14 are missing from T&Cs list (No 267 – 280 24/5/44-23/8/44), 44 differ in date and 17 differ on type. This leave 96 that generally agree but remember there is no time and few types and locations listed in the T&C List.

Of the remaining 31 not listed in Tony Wood’s list, I’ve compared these to Barbas’s “Die Geschicht der I Gruppe des Jagdgeschwader 52” and “Die Geschicht der II Gruppe des Jagdgeschwader 52”. Again 14 are missing from T&Cs list (No. 333 – 346, 6/2/45-27/2/45), and 7 differ in date so only 10 agree on date with both lists (very little data in time or location).

Thus, only 113 of the first 150 claims for both list match thus having a high reliability of being accurate claims. 96 of the remaining 171 Wood’s listed claims are even comparable but less reliable with the T&C list lacking in type, time, and location. Of the remaining 31 claims that were compared to Barbas’s work only 11 is comparable but again even less reliable with both lists lacking time and location for many of the claims.

Now this raises an interesting question? Dimitri Khazanov’s wrote an article in respect to Hartmann only gaining 80 victories. I do not have a copy of the article but I have read Jean-Yves Lorant response and it appears that Khazanov’s research is based on the T&Cs list in his effort to confirm the claims. In light of the differences listed above, it’s no wonder Khazanov can only confirm about 80 of Hartmann’s 352 claims using the T&C list.

If anyone has a copy of Khazanov’s article/work I would be interested in getting a copy to determine which of Hartmann’s claims he was able to confirm for his 80 victories?

For those interested, I’ve attached my combined lists that was used in the comparison.

Regards,

Craig...
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Old 4th May 2009, 18:23
leonventer leonventer is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

Hi Craig,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapper View Post
For those interested, I’ve attached my combined lists that was used in the comparison.
Thanks for posting your list -- a useful resource, and a good basis for further study.

Regards,
Leon Venter
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