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Old 26th January 2020, 00:38
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is online now
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Who shot down a Bf110 of NJG1 during the night 12-13/10/1941 over Belgium ?

Hi,


During the night 12-13/10/1941 the Luftwaffe lost their first nightfighter in Belgium: Bf110C-4 w/nr.3598 of NJG1.

According to The Bomber Command War Diaries the total effort for this night was 373 sorties. Based on the information obtained from the Squadron orb’s which I have , I come only to 343. When comparing the figures by target a difference of 18 aircraft for Bremen and 12 aircraft for Huls was found. Of these 343 aircraft 13 went missing, resulting in available information (at this moment) for 330 aircraft.


Of these 330 aircraft only 4 reported contact with enemy fighters :
58 Sqdn: X9142 Whitley damaged during combat with enemy fighter
144 Sqdn : AE200 and AE238 Hampdens had contact with an enemy fighter, but evaded
115 Sqdn : X9909 Wellington failed to reach the target due to an attack by a Me110, which was possibly hit, and loss of height due to evasive action.


Is a copy of the night bomb raid sheet available for this night ? Does it contain details about the number of aircraft per Squadron and target ? (The sheet can possibly be found in AIR 14/2673, which I don’t have).


Is any additional information available regarding the attack of the Bf110 on a RAF aircraft during that night ?


Many thanks in advance and best regards


Luc
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  #2  
Old 26th January 2020, 21:54
phasselgren phasselgren is offline
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Re: Who shot down a Bf110 of NJG1 during the night 12-13/10/1941 over Belgium ?

Hi Luc,

In the Interception/Tactics report (AIR 14/3371) for this night there are 6 combats involving 3 Group and 2 combats involving 4 Group plus a total of 23 encounters.

The only combat were the E/A was claimed to be hit is this by a 3 Group Wellington (squadrons are not identified in this document only the groups).
”Meppel – 10 miles N.E. 2331 – 12,000 ft. Ju 88 appeared 20 yds in front of our Well. lC slightly below and to port , gradually crabbing nearer. Our A/C climbed preparatory to climbing and diving and jinking over E/A. E/A passed below and RG gave him two short bursts at 250 yds and claims to have registered hits. E/A disappeared in cloud. No S/Ls or flak. Moon shining behind our A/C.”

Wrong aircraft type and the combat was not over Belgium. There were three combats over or near Charleroi (2047, 0100 and 014? hrs) but no claims were made.

Regards,
Peter
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Old 26th January 2020, 22:03
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: Who shot down a Bf110 of NJG1 during the night 12-13/10/1941 over Belgium ?

Group Target Type Sqn Des DCO Alt DNCO Lost
1 Boulogne Wellington 12 1 1 0 0 0
1 Boulogne Wellington 103 1 1 0 0 0
1 Boulogne Wellington 142 4 4 0 0 0
1 Boulogne Wellington 301 2 2 0 0 0
1 Boulogne Wellington 304 2 2 0 0 0
3 Boulogne Wellington 9 1 1 0 0 0
3 Boulogne Wellington 99 2 2 0 0 0
3 Boulogne Wellington 149 3 3 0 0 0
3 Boulogne Wellington 214 4 4 0 0 0
3 Boulogne Wellington 311 3 3 0 0 0
4 Boulogne Whitley 102 1 1 0 0 0
1 Bremen Wellington 103 9 6 2 1 0
1 Bremen Wellington 150 11 10 0 1 0
1 Bremen Wellington 300 10 10 0 0 0
1 Bremen Wellington 301 9 9 0 0 0
1 Bremen Wellington 304 3 2 1 0 0
1 Bremen Wellington 305 5 5 0 0 0
3 Bremen Wellington 9 5 5 0 0 0
3 Bremen Wellington 40 3 2 0 0 1
3 Bremen Wellington 57 3 3 0 0 0
3 Bremen Wellington 75 3 3 0 0 0
3 Bremen Wellington 99 7 6 1 0 0
3 Bremen Wellington 214 4 3 0 1 0
4 Bremen Halifax 76 1 0 0 0 1
4 Bremen Whitley 10 3 2 0 1 0
4 Bremen Whitley 77 3 1 1 1 0
5 Bremen Hampden 44 2 1 1 0 0
5 Bremen Hampden 49 4 4 0 0 0
5 Bremen Hampden 83 5 0 2 3 0
5 Bremen Hampden 144 7 6 1 0 0
5 Bremen Hampden 408 2 1 0 1 0
5 Hüls Hampden 44 8 5 2 1 0
5 Hüls Hampden 49 12 0 7 5 0
5 Hüls Hampden 50 14 8 1 4 1
5 Hüls Hampden 83 12 7 3 2 0
5 Hüls Hampden 106 12 5 7 0 0
5 Hüls Hampden 144 12 5 5 1 1
5 Hüls Hampden 408 8 8 0 0 0
5 Hüls Hampden 455 4 2 1 1 0
5 Hüls Manchester207 11 4 6 0 1
5 Intruder Hampden 44 2 1 0 1 0
5 Intruder Hampden 144 2 2 0 0 0
5 Intruder Hampden 408 3 3 0 0 0
1 Nürnberg Wellington 12 8 5 2 0 1
1 Nürnberg Wellington 304 2 2 0 0 0
3 Nürnberg Stirling 15 7 4 0 2 2
3 Nürnberg Wellington 40 8 4 3 0 1
3 Nürnberg Wellington 57 6 5 0 0 1
3 Nürnberg Wellington 75 6 4 0 1 1
3 Nürnberg Wellington 99 5 4 0 1 0
3 Nürnberg Wellington 115 11 10 0 1 0
3 Nürnberg Wellington 149 9 8 1 0 0
3 Nürnberg Wellington 214 5 3 1 0 1
3 Nürnberg Wellington 218 11 8 1 1 1
3 Nürnberg Wellington 311 5 4 1 0 0
4 Nürnberg Halifax 35 5 4 1 0 1
4 Nürnberg Halifax 76 4 4 0 0 0
4 Nürnberg Wellington 405 4 2 1 1 0
4 Nürnberg Whitley 10 6 4 2 0 0
4 Nürnberg Whitley 51 13 10 3 0 0
4 Nürnberg Whitley 58 7 5 0 1 1
4 Nürnberg Whitley 77 9 7 1 0 1
4 Nürnberg Whitley 78 7 7 0 0 0
4 Nürnberg Whitley 102 12 7 4 1 1

Sorties for night

It is possible to loss came from an a/c that was itself shot down

Sorry formatting went to pot

Martin
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  #4  
Old 26th January 2020, 22:41
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is online now
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Re: Who shot down a Bf110 of NJG1 during the night 12-13/10/1941 over Belgium ?

Peter and Martin,


Many thanks for your replies. They are of great help and will be compared with the data I already have. Result to follow asap.


Best regards


Luc
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Old 26th January 2020, 23:17
TigerTimon TigerTimon is offline
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Re: Who shot down a Bf110 of NJG1 during the night 12-13/10/1941 over Belgium ?

According to Dr. Boiten and his Nachtjagd Combat Archive The Early Years, the aircraft was damaged in aerial combat with probably a 115 Squadron Wellington.
It should be noted that another 1./NJG 1 Bf 110 was also damaged in aerial combat with an RAF bomber and was belly-landed at Sint-Truiden airfield.

Kind regards,

Timon
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Old 27th January 2020, 12:14
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is online now
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Re: Who shot down a Bf110 of NJG1 during the night 12-13/10/1941 over Belgium ?

Timon,


Many thanks for pointing me in that direction. I have several volumes of the Nachtjagd Combat Archive, but not yet the volume 2 of the Early years, which I have now added to my shopping list.


Best regards - Met vriendelijke groeten,


Luc
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  #7  
Old 1st February 2020, 15:18
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is online now
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Re: Who shot down a Bf110 of NJG1 during the night 12-13/10/1941 over Belgium ?

Martin,


Compared the information you kindly supplied with the information I already had found : 2 additional squadrons were found to be active during that night.

The orb of 49 Squadron (Hampdens) mentions that several enemy aircraft were encountered :
AD896 : E.A. made attack without firing.
AE368 : Shadowed by ME.109 but lost it by evasion.
AE241 : Enemy aircraft seen after bombing.
X3135 : Twice followed by fighters.
AE227 : Enemy fighter recognised as Me.110 on return.

The orb of 455 Squadron (Hampdens) only mentions that 4 aircraft (target: Huls) returned safe, the Form 541 for this raid is not included in the TNA copy of the ORB AIR 27/1897.

Is any German document available regarding the crash of this Bf110 (especially any indication regarding at what hour it happened) ?

When we can compare this with the German claims on RAF aircraft the number of possibilities can be reduced again.

Best regards

Luc
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