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Old 22nd October 2007, 22:59
Larry Daley Larry Daley is offline
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Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

To all:

Thank you for accepting me. I am writing up my memories: "Narrations of War in Cuba"

However, the Prologue deals with memories of WWII in Rhosneigr, Anglesey Wales, where I was evacuated during this times.

Trying to track down details of events from childhood history. If anybody would like to comment or add to on the following excerpt (see below) it would be appreciated.

Friends are not sure that Condors were still flying over the area in 1943, or that they were still attacking shipping in the Irish Sea. I think they were however, it is possible that this is wrong.

My apologies since some reason the end notes, which are note in Arabic numbers (in my manuscript), appear here as footnotes indicated by Roman numbers. Some corrections were maintained, have eliminated most of them. Citations ix gives the names of the crew of German Condor which ended up in Ireland about that time. Could this Condor have flown over the Anglesey at that time.


Sincerely

Larry Daley
daleyl@peak.org

"War was another matter we accepted without question. My Cousin MJ writes: “The policeman used to run down the streets (of Rhosneigr) blowing a whistle to warn of an air raid. I guess German planes did reach that far. … Lots of carrots and bits of wooden crates …being washed up on the beach. A merchant ship had probably been sunk nearby." I too remember the crate-like life rafts or raft like vegetable crates[i] washed up along that shore on the sand slightly south of Beach Street. While there are records of some such sinking vessels[ii] as yet I have not been able to find the specific name of that sunken ship.

Aunt Manuela, MJ and Lexy’s mother, recalls that a group of rescuers who launched a boat and tried to save the merchant sailors, but the rescue boat sank, and all in it drowned.[iii] So many died violently in those days,[iv] sometimes even today they are not all accounted for..

Another time it must have been 1943 or so when cousins MJ and Alexis were about nine and seven, but they had returned to London where they saw some of the last of the blitz and watched heard the German V-I “buzz bombs.” I was about seven, and my brother Lionel about five; we were still living in Rhosneigr. We were on the beach almost in front of Mrs. Manning’s boarding house, where the sea came in to the beach through a series of dark rocky outcroppings from the reef-like “Boating Pool” rocks.[v] One day we and some other children collected streamers of aluminum foil (we called it “silver” paper, also called chaff or window), that floated out of the nothing of a very cloudy sky. Although Lionel and I did not know it then, this was at least an occasional practice for German aircraft.[vi] This particular “chaff”[vii] was apparently dropped by raiding Nazi aircraft, perhaps Focke Wolf Fw200 Condor or Junker bombers[viii] that are said to perhaps have sunk more ships than the U-Boats.[ix]

My brother Lionel remembers enemy planes overhead, I was again scared. My brother recalls: "I don't remember being terrified. I do recall running down the beach catching the foil dropped by the planes. I also seem to remember the iron cross markings showing through the clouds, on low flying German planes, flying in from over the Irish Sea."

Many years later I was to learn that there was a ground control interception radar station called Trewan Sands[x] close to Valley. However, then we did not know that this. The strips of foil were intended to “jam,” to defeat radar detection.[xi] To do that the foil “chaff” must have been 75 mm (over two feet long) just as we remembered it; that is the chaff was half the wavelength of the 1½ metere GCI radar equipment used in those days. One of the older kids said the foil may be poisoned by the Germans. So we hid it under a rock near the water. The tide came in and went out and the aluminum foil was lost; we were very disappointed.
[i] The “raft” could have been either a raft or a crate used as a raft, see: James, Woody (2006-2007, accessed 9-26-07) Interview (by Rick Randle) with Woody James Coxwain USS Indianapolis, Gilbert Town, Alabama, Salt Lake City, Utah. Utah WW II Stories Aired Tuesday, March 7, 2006 http://kued.org/productions/worldwar2/james_woody.php Rick: Woody James, a Navy coxswain, is one of the few survivors of the USS Indianapolis. The Indianapolis was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine after delivering a very special cargo: 1 complete atomic bomb and part of another. “So you had no lifejacket. What about your friend? He had one on. I went over without one and of course when I got tangled up, he'd already swam out a way and I lay there for a second and something bumped me - a potato crate. They're about that long, octagon shaped, about so big around with slats, little slats. There were no potatoes in it but it was an empty crate and that was my life raft. It held me up. And I'm all alone, nobody around, I don't hear a thing. So I let out a big yell, "Is anybody out here?" In a great big old gruff voice, "HEY WOODY, OVER HERE!" - my buddy Jim Newhall. And I swam over a little ways and there was quite a group of them and lifejackets everywhere. So I got a lifejacket and put it on and turned my potato crate loose. Of course the first question was, "Did we get a message off? Did we get an SOS off?" Everybody talking, "Oh yeah, I'm sure we did. So nothing to worry about we'll be picked up tomorrow. They know where we're at."” Navy Department 1945 (accessed 9-26-07) USS Monaghan survivors tell story; rescued By USS Brown (held for release press and radio until 6 p.m. (E.W.T.) February 11, 1945) from the Survivors - The official record http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-...r/808538/posts “(Note by Chuck Smith.) These life rafts were a balsa wood ring about four feet across and 8 or 10 feet long. They had a coarse weave netting of about 3/8-inch rope fastened to the balsa wood ring, with a woven wooden slat bottom. The only thing you could do was hang on to them. Your body was in the water whether you were on the inside or the outside of the balsa wood ring.)”

[ii] Keegan, John (editor) 1997 p. 48, figure at lower right.

[iii] Norman, Manuel Jose 2007 personal communication Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:29:11 -0400 From: Manuel J Norman mnorman@emich.edu To: daleyl@peak.org Subject: Re: [MAR] Re SS Romsey Don't have an answer to that. The only vegetables I remember were carrots. Lexy also remembers them. My mother mentioned that during that time a group of rescuers put out to sea in a small boat to rescue merchant sailors from a sunken ship. Sadly the boat sank and they all drowned. I don't know whether any of the merchant sailors were saved. MJ.

[iv] E.g. Shortridge, Clayton (Bud) 2007 (accessed 10-7-07) “Milk Cows” A fantastic Allied intelligence coup quickly sealed the fate of all ten of Hitler’s all-important submersible U-tankers. Slaughtered. Personal communication and manuscript in Progress. “Germany lost 784 U-boats sunk or destroyed in WW II. In them 27,491 submariners gave their lives. No other service suffered as high a casualty rate as the men of the Ubotwaffe. The names of each are posterity on the U-boat memorial at Kiel.”

[v] Hale 2007 personal communication 10-8-07 “ If you mean "on the left as you look from beach terrace towards the sea" > then that is what is called The Boating pool and there are lots of rocks there. There are also rocks to the right of Beach Terrace (at the bottom of Beach road) and as a youngster living on Beach terrace, its likely that those rocks are what you mean. Unfortunately none of them are big enough to > be named - its more like a rocky outcrop, or a reef. They would also be nearer to RAF Valley than Lion rocks, although The boating pool rocks are slightly further out to sea and may be more likely to have been flown over.”

[vi] It seems that dropping aluminum foil “chaff” was at least an occasional practice of German bombers over England. Af Paul Benyon writes in a personal communication: Subject: Re: [MAR] AN ARTICLE THAT YOU'ALL "MAY" FIND INFORMATIVE From: "Paul Benyon" pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com Date: Fri, October 12, 2007 4:22 pm To: daleyl@peak.org Larry (P.B. quoting previous message) "Another time it must have been 1943 or so when cousins MJ and Alexis were about nine and seven, but they had returned to London where they saw some of the last of the blitz and watched heard the German V-I “buzzbombs”. P.B. writes: “This continued well into 1944, when it also included the more lethal V2 bombs, and didn't end until the allies occupied the area used for the launch sites. As a kid I well remember the sky over London appearing to be full of barrage balloons, especially when we looked east towards the centre of the City from where we used to stay, at Fulham. We too used to love to pick-up chaff, and were also warned off it by our mothers, for the very same reason - but you know what kids are like ;-) When not in London we lived in a small and very rural village to the West of London just to the south of the River Thames, which German bombers used, along with the railway tracks, as navigation aids at night, when heading for the Midlands or Bristol area. When weather permitted, the noise of aircraft would fill the air when the British and American heavy bombers headed off for Germany in the evening, and their sound would be replaced by German bombers coming inland, with the reverse taking place later in the night as Jerry went home and our lads arrived back from the continent, the time of arrival back often depending on how far into Germany they'd been. FWIW Regards Paul”

[vii] Benyon, Poul, Personal communication Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:32:25 +0100 “I think the operation conducted against Bruneval probably demonstrates more than anything how early the Germans had got their act together with regards to Radar” and Uri (accessed 10-13-07) World War 2 RADAR. The technology which revolutionized air and naval warfare. World War 2 Insightful Essays. http://www.2worldwar2.com/radar.htm “Chaff (nicknamed "window" by the Royal Air Force) are a cloud of thin lightweight strips of metal cut to a specific size, which can be dispersed from a heavy bomber. These strips are designed to be detected by RADAR and therefore instead of detecting isolated real targets, the RADAR operator sees just a huge cloud. …They could also help determine where enemy radars were positioned, so they could be attacked, or bypassed, or in one special case, stolen! - in late 1941, British intelligence noticed that one German early warning RADAR position, in Bruneval, Belgium, was positioned very close to the beach. It was on a cliff, but not far from a path going down to the water. This was enough for British commandos to raid the isolated German RADAR station in Bruneval one winter night in 1942, dismantle the RADAR, with the help of a RADAR specialist who came with them, and take it all back to England in a motor boat, for a complete analysis of this particular type and of German RADAR technology in general. (this bold idea was repeated in 1969 when Israeli commandos dismantled and lifted a RADAR in Egypt with helicopters)”

[viii] Daley, Larry 2002 Valley Airport Anglesey Wales Condor attack at sea? Gustin, Emmanuel (accessed 8-4-07) The Focke-Wulf Fw 200 Condor. Uboat.net http://uboat.net/technical/fw200.htm

[ix] Poolman, Kenneth 1979 Scourge of the Atlantic: Focke-Wulf Condor. Book Club Associates ASIN B0007C04PC ISBN 0354011642 and personal communication from Clayton Shortridge Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:13:43 +0000 From: cshortridge@comcast.net “THE CONDOR THREAT Nicknamed the ‘scourge of the Atlantic’, the Focke Wulf Fw200 Condor was a long-range (2206 mile) reconnaissance and bomber aircraft. A gondola fitted to the underside of the aircraft carried a forward-firing 20 mm cannon and 3,857 lbs of bombs. Condors went into service in 1940 in their dual role as bombers and convoy spotters for the U-boats. Communications with the U-boats were poor at first, and navigational errors sometimes led the U-boats the wrong way, but the aircraft were highly successful in their bombing role, sinking 11 ships in 1940 and crippling the liner “Empress of Britain,” later finished off by a U-boat. Sometimes it was the U-boats that called up to the Condors to attack a convoy, rather than the other way around, and in February 1941 a submarine spotted convoy HG-53 outward-bound from Gibraltar and called up six Condors which sank five ships. The threat was met by the introduction of escort aircraft carriers, by fitting antiaircraft guns to Allied merchant ship and by the use of long-range fighter aircraft. CAM ships [Catapult Aircraft Merchantmen] were another effective, though expensive, defense against the Condors. These ships carried a Hawker Hurricane fighter which could be launched from the deck by catapult, but after his mission the pilot had either to ditch his aircraft in the sea close to the CAM or parachute from it. In either case the aircraft was lost.” However, Focke-Wolf continued to fly over the seas around Ireland as reported by Dennis Burke (Burke, Dennis 2007 (accessed 10-12-07) Foreign Aircraft Landings in Ireland 1939 – 1946 http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/crashes.htm) territory “Having flown around the west coast for some time the aircraft made a forced landing having run low on fuel and with engine problems. The crew interned in Curragh that night. [Cummin's Information supplied Aug06 & File 01/06; MA Files G2/X/1259 & ACF-S-188 for names, ranks a little unclear; M. O'Reilly article The Guardian, Nenagh Sept. 2 2006.; IMA #G21; MacCarron p.70 & 147] December 13, 1943 Focke-Wolf Fw200 C-3 237 F8+MR Luftwaffe 7/III/KG.40 Tipperary Ballydrennan, Ballycommon, near. Nenagh (Portroe, Dromineer,) 0 8 Oblt. Egon Scherret Uffz. Hans Meidel; Uffz. Karl Heinz Schwarzkopf; Fw. Hans Ressek; Uffz. Ulrich Winkler; Ofw. Willi Voll; Fw. Alfred Thiemt; Uffz. Bruno Arndt “ This seems the appropriate aircraft event that corresponds to our sightings given the ages of my brother Lionel and myself is the following Focke-Wolf Fw200. Unfortunately the fit is not perfect because it was on the west coast of Ireland; however Rosneigr, Anglesey is well within the aircraft range, and Ireland, was neutral and probably did not have anti-aircraft in position to fire if it had crossed its territory.

[x] Catford, 2004

[xi] Early in the war this was a major British advantage Keegan, John (editor). 1997 p.87, legend to figure at lower right


"
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Old 26th October 2007, 21:11
Larry Daley Larry Daley is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

Bombing over the Irish sea apparently was not that uncommon. Now have two sources about events in two areas that although they were some what distant were easily within flying distance of Rhosneigr.


(1) BBC staff (accessed 10-26-07) Nazis Who Knew Cardiff. BBC Home Page, South Wales. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southeast...esponse#thanksSenior Air Raid Warden Gilbert Shepherd said that the last air raid on Cardiff, on May 18th 1943, was planned by a Nazi who knew the city.

(2) Fisk, Robert 1983 In Time of War: Ireland, Ulster and the Price of Neutrality, 1939-45 Gill & McMillan Dublin (1985) ISBN-13 9780717124114 p.301-302“… the Luftwaffe had adapted a new tactic, flying their long-range Focke-Wolf Condor bombers from French airfields around Brest up the west coast of Ireland to attack British shipping and then with their tanks low, on fuel continuing on to airbases at Stavanger in German occupied Norway… at the deserted port of Berehaven, local people watched the big four-engined Condors flying over them every morning en route to the Atlantic convoy lanes, undisturbed by British fighters ore anti-aircraft fire. In February (1941 I think the author is not clear on which year L.D.), seventy-nine British freighters were sunk, the highest losses in the war so far.”
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Old 26th October 2007, 21:12
Larry Daley Larry Daley is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

Bombing over the Irish sea apparently was not that uncommon. Now have two sources about events in two areas that although they were somewhat distant were easily within flying distance of Rhosneigr, Anglesey


(1) BBC staff (accessed 10-26-07) Nazis Who Knew Cardiff. BBC Home Page, South Wales. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southeast...esponse#thanksSenior Air Raid Warden Gilbert Shepherd said that the last air raid on Cardiff, on May 18th 1943, was planned by a Nazi who knew the city.

(2) Fisk, Robert 1983 In Time of War: Ireland, Ulster and the Price of Neutrality, 1939-45 Gill & McMillan Dublin (1985) ISBN-13 9780717124114 p.301-302“… the Luftwaffe had adapted a new tactic, flying their long-range Focke-Wolf Condor bombers from French airfields around Brest up the west coast of Ireland to attack British shipping and then with their tanks low, on fuel continuing on to airbases at Stavanger in German occupied Norway… at the deserted port of Berehaven, local people watched the big four-engined Condors flying over them every morning en route to the Atlantic convoy lanes, undisturbed by British fighters ore anti-aircraft fire. In February (1941 I think the author is not clear on which year L.D.), seventy-nine British freighters were sunk, the highest losses in the war so far.”
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Old 26th October 2007, 22:15
David Ransome David Ransome is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

Hi,

I'm still looking into some of the things you raise inyour items above, not that I may get very far as it isn't my main interest area! I live a couple of miles from Rhosneigr and know all this area well, particularly around RAF Valley and Mona airfields.

I'll see if I can dig anything up locally and let you know. Unfortunately I can't promise anything speedily due to work commitments but I'll do my best!

Regards

David
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Old 26th October 2007, 23:13
Larry Daley Larry Daley is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

David:

Thank you, anything you find out will be much appreciated


take care and be well

Larry
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Old 27th October 2007, 16:55
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

Larry,

I do not know if this helps on 16th.Feb.1944 two Ju 290's were shot down off Northern Ireland, one fell to a Beaufighter and one to Naval aircraft. All crewmen recorded as missing, unfortunately I have no better location or how far off the coast these Junkers were,

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Brian Bines
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Old 27th October 2007, 17:45
Larry Daley Larry Daley is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

Brian:


thank you that is much appreciated.

I googled your data and found some very useful material

However if you have a citation to this it would be appreciated

Dp you know if they were east, north or west of Northern Ireland

Apparently the British were jamming the German electronic guidance systems which were received remotely, and as a result the German planes wandered all over the place

from
http://www.aflma.hq.af.mil/lgj/old%2...202006_cor.pdf

"The advantages of these systems, despite their drawbacks, are obvious from the German point of view. They had the ability to direct and control their aircraft as well as recover them in less than optimal conditions. These systems also facilitated night bombing, which adds a psychological effect to the physical effect and destruction. From the British point of view, these systems were of import as they were easy to overcome. Radio frequencies operated over long distances are easy to disrupt once the transmit and receive frequencies are known. The Germans kept their systems simple, using dots and dashes on prescribed frequencies, but the British overcame this by inspecting aircraft that had been shot down. The British did not need to know what to listen for once they had the frequency. Using a technique known as meaconing, whereby the British flooded the various German frequencies with extra traffic, the British were able to defeat the Knickebein and X-Geraet systems.28 To overcome the Y-Geraet systems, the British merely jammed the frequency."

take care and be well

Larry
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Old 27th October 2007, 21:41
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

Larry,

All I have is a crew listing for the missing Junkers, and a ref. from a book that one fell to a Beaughter and one to naval aircraft. I believe the Beaufighter may have come from 235 Sqd. based at St. Angelo perhaps someone else may be able to throw more light on this,

Regards

Brian Bines
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Old 28th October 2007, 05:31
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

On Feb 16, 1944, at 1005 hours, two Wildcat IVs of 811 Sqn, Lts. William Clifford Dimes & Erik Sven Erikson (both RNZNVR) claimed a Ju-290 at 53-31N, 14-46W. Source: CR: ADM 199/167-15&18.

At 1650, Beaufighter X `N' of 235 Sqn, F/Lt Robert Ronald Wright + F/O Patrick James Forrest Ross (obs) claimed a Ju-290 SW of Ireland. Source: Chris Goss and Sqn ORB. I have not found a CR for this combat.

Frank.
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Old 28th October 2007, 10:07
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Condors over Irish Sea, chaff and dupple

Thanks for that Frank,

Brian Bines
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