JG5 on 26Apr42

[Nokose]

I'm going through a Russian article on the verification of certain pilot scores of JG5. On the 26Apr42 from the 6. Staffel Lt. Friedrich Dahn claimed three Hurricanes and Unteroffizer Dietrich Weinitscke claimed one. In another instance 8. Staffel Unteroffizer Heinrich Bartels and Fw. Oskar Thimm claimed one each. The article I don't think used Priens JFV 9/III as Thimm was not listed. From Mombeek's books on JG5 does it list these battles. I'm thinking that the 6. was escorting bombers while the 8. was on a free hunt.

[Rob Romero]

Nokose, please keep us appraised of the conclusions. I love when give us glimmers into those rarely evaluated Ostfront combats!

Rob Romero

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Nokose

I'm going through a Russian article on the verification of certain pilot scores of JG5.

Are you talking about the article by Aleksandr Mardanov on Rudolf Müller's claims?

Mardanov definitely have not used Prien's JFV, his main source was 'Eismeerjager' by Mombeek.

Soviet losses included 2 Hurricanes destroyed and 1 damaged. So, taking into account JFV data, the number of overclaims was even higher...

[Nokose]

Yes, it's his article in Aviamaster but it is the second part of his article on JG5 "Eight Written. Two in Mind"(?). Looking at the way he wrote the events it appears that Dahn and Weinitscke engaged the the 4 Hurricanes of the 769 IAP and then the 768 IAP. So for four claimed Hurricanes they got 1 Hurricane from the 769 IAP (& damaging one) and damaged one Hurricane from the 768 IAP. But on looking at the claims by the timeline and location it appears that Bartels got the first Hurricane of the 2 GKAP SF and that Thimm's first kill was actually only a damaged Hurricane.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Since virtually no controllable information on the VVS ever appear for serious evaluation these attempts to compare claims vs losses are at best futile.

Until the (now) Russian, ex-Soviet, archives are open for study these comparisons are and sadly will be a waste of time, and one will only have small parts of information of dubious quality and most probably, as we have seen earlier, with a rather heavy political twist to it, even 70 years on in time.

It is regrettable, and I hope that we will be able to use the archives as a real source in the future.

It is of course a very relevant question to what extent the records are influenced by politics or shear fear - the same question the students of the air war in the west constantly ask with regards to german records.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Until the (now) Russian, ex-Soviet, archives are open for study

These archives are open for study now.

Come and learn

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

Good! Because the last report I got was that they had been gloser again...

Regards,
Andreas B

[Nokose]

On the raid on the Petsamo airfield by the 7 Pe-3 of the 95 IAP. All of the 5 claims match. On the 3 Hurricanes later claimed the author stated that they were in the same mission but there is no location. He indicates that no "Hurricanes" engaged in combat. In Priens JFV it doesn't give a time but the location is given as 1 to 2 km west of Murmansk. Maybe later in the day there was another mission?

Reference the archives, I have been informed that the navy VVS records are not in Moscow. Has the Russian citizenship still have anything to do with the research there still? Not that I can afford the trip.

[kolya1]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi.

Since virtually no controllable information on the VVS ever appear for serious evaluation these attempts to compare claims vs losses are at best futile.

Until the (now) Russian, ex-Soviet, archives are open for study these comparisons are and sadly will be a waste of time, and one will only have small parts of information of dubious quality and most probably, as we have seen earlier, with a rather heavy political twist to it, even 70 years on in time.

It is regrettable, and I hope that we will be able to use the archives as a real source in the future.

It is of course a very relevant question to what extent the records are influenced by politics or shear fear - the same question the students of the air war in the west constantly ask with regards to german records.

Regards,
Andreas B

Andreas,

AFAIK, Soviet loss records are open and, except for part of the records of the fronts involved in large-scale disasters in 1941-1942 (when part of the documents were lost), they seem to be more complete than German ones for the Eastern Front, a large part of which seem to have been lost (including many which were destroyed at the end of the war) or neglected in the second half of the war.

The main problems are that in order to access them, you have to go to Russia, that the procedures to access them are time-consuming (AFAIK, most of the records are not digitized), and, first of all, that, while many non-Russian historians can either speak English and/or German or get some help with those languages, quite few of them can access documents in Russian.

I am no specialist on Russian archive conservation and access, but I think this subject has been discussed on 12OCH by Russian researchers with experience about working on military archives in the past.

Kolya.

[Nokose]

Does anyone have the correct name of Oblt "Alferbakha" lost on the 26 Apr42 on Ju 88A-4 WkNr. 1776 (4D+KH) of Erpr.St/KG30. Also the unit and pilot for reconnaissance Ju 88D-1 WkNr 1501 from the 124 Group(?) lost on the 26th.