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Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War.

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  #21  
Old 20th June 2018, 09:09
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Good morning Peter,

Wings Palette offers a 6-79 profile with 15 victory bars (which includes his unconfirmed claim).
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/139/67/3
So far, I think we can assume 14 Mölders kills in 6-79, can we not ?

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael
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  #22  
Old 20th June 2018, 10:44
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Sorry Michael, we could ..... but while many of the profiles on that site are accurate, many are not. It could well be that someone took a bit of artistic licence and said, well, he had 14+1, so I'll put that on the tail.
From memory there have been instances of that mentioned on this forum.
Without a photo you just never know for sure.
For 6o79 I have a photo with 4, a photo with 12, a model kit with 3 and a decal set from a company which is unfortunately known to take a bit of licence with 15.
So 12 is the highest confirmed score I have.
I also have a profile from Osprey's Aces of the Legion Condor book by Robert Forsythe which claims to be based on a photo taken in late 1938 showing 15 bars arranged as in the abovementioned decal set.
Peter
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  #23  
Old 20th June 2018, 14:36
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Good afternoon Peter,

if memory serves me well this book
https://www.amazon.de/Jagdflieger-Ob...r+m%C3%B6lders
features a photo of Mölders' rudder showing 15 victory bars.
The book is in the Brandenburg library, which I can visit next Monday.

Furthermore, I'll check this journal which is at home.
https://www.amazon.de/Milit%C3%A4r-G...r+m%C3%B6lders

I'll report to you, sincerely,

Michael
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  #24  
Old 20th June 2018, 16:30
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is online now
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Hello,

You will also find a photo of the LC Bf 109 with 15 kill markings in this publication:

German Aircraft Markings 1939-1945
Merrick,K A
London:Ian Allan,1977
p.32

The caption reads:

Above: Fifteen kill markings on the fin of what is believed to be Werner Molders' Bf 109. It was previously thought that Molders had achieved only 14 kills in Spain. Camouflage appears to be 62 Green, the damaged paintwork revealing the 02 primer coat. Source: (J) Greiner Collection.

Col.
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  #25  
Old 20th June 2018, 17:47
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Thanks Col. Does the photo allow you to confirm it is 6o79?
Thanks
Peter
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  #26  
Old 21st June 2018, 02:40
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chuckschmitz chuckschmitz is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

So everything Luftwaffe upto 31 August 1939 will
be moved to pre-WWII?
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  #27  
Old 21st June 2018, 03:36
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is online now
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoz99 View Post
Thanks Col. Does the photo allow you to confirm it is 6o79?
Thanks
Peter
Peter.

No. The photograph shows only the fin and the rudder. Seven white kill bars in top row, Eight in the bottom row, usual white painted rudder with black cross.

Col.
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  #28  
Old 21st June 2018, 04:10
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckschmitz View Post
So everything Luftwaffe upto 31 August 1939 will
be moved to pre-WWII?
Well, the SCW was before WW2, so I'd have to agree in this case this is where the thread belongs
Peter
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  #29  
Old 21st June 2018, 04:10
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Col Bruggy View Post
Peter.

No. The photograph shows only the fin and the rudder. Seven white kill bars in top row, Eight in the bottom row, usual white painted rudder with black cross.

Col.
Thanks Col. Let's see what Michael can find next week.
Cheers
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  #30  
Old 21st June 2018, 04:35
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Col Bruggy View Post
Hello,

You will also find a photo of the LC Bf 109 with 15 kill markings in this publication:

German Aircraft Markings 1939-1945
Merrick,K A
London:Ian Allan,1977
p.32

The caption reads:

Above: Fifteen kill markings on the fin of what is believed to be Werner Molders' Bf 109. It was previously thought that Molders had achieved only 14 kills in Spain. Camouflage appears to be 62 Green, the damaged paintwork revealing the 02 primer coat. Source: (J) Greiner Collection.

Col.
For those who own it, Werner Held's album "The Day Fighters" has a picture of what is purported to be Moelders' rudder with 15 victory markings on the tail. Page 18. Not sure if it is the same image that Col refers to.

Here is my break-down of Moelders' claims, can anyone provide details of the unconfirmed victory?

SPAIN
1st claim
15.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Algar/Villamalur
Day's losses include Felipe Cirujeda Esteve of 1a Esc, Grupo 26; Jose Redondo of 1a Esc apparently by collision with Bf109; one I-15 lost to a collision with an I-16 (pilot of I-16 named Pastor)

2nd claim
17.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") N of Liria
2a Esc, Grupo 26 lost Felipe Barroso Calvo KIA (exploded in mid-air, attributed to Moelders), 2 other pilots baled out WIA

3rd claim
19.7.38 I-16 "Rata" W of Villar del Arzobispo
Grupo 21. Day's losses include Eduardo Gonzalez Casola of 1e Esc plus Ilya Grigorevich Shugurov (el Toro/Levant sector) KIA. From 17.7.38 to 23.7.38 there were nine I-16s lost and seven I-15s

4th claim
19.8.38 I-16 "Rata" Flix
Day's losses include Vasilii Fedorovich Vorobyov KIA (some sources say he was KIA 21.8.38 but no claims that day)

5th claim
23.8.38 SB-2 Albi
Grupo 12 or Grupo 24. No further details…

6th claim
9.9.38 I-16 "Rata" Flix
Grupo 21. No further details

7th claim
13.9.38 I-16 "Rata" Flix
Grupo 21. No further details

8th claim
23.9.38 I-16 "Rata" Ginestar sector
(plus another one unconfirmed)
Only one known loss this date: 3a Esc, Grupo 21 lost pilot Margalef KIA (versus at least 7 claims)

9th claim
10.10.38 I-16 "Rata" NE of Flix
Grupo 21. No further details

10th and 11th claims
15.10.38 2 x I-16 “Ratas” La Figuera - Sierra de Montsant
Believed to be 3 losses by unit of Sergei Gritsevits this date (versus 4 claims in total)

12th and 13th claims
31.10.38 2 x I-16 “Ratas” NW of Flix - E of Ribarroja
Grupo 21. Day's I-16 losses include CM-219 of 1a Esc Vicente Beltran Rodrigo KIA. Grupo's 6a Esc also in action this date

14th claim
3.11.38 I-16 "Rata" Mora de Ebro or Mola area
3a Esc, 4a Esc, 5a Esc and 6a Esc Grupo 21 all definitely in action this date, details pending

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