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  #11  
Old 8th October 2018, 02:51
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?

Ok, here is my reaction. - Hello Stig, thanks for interest!, but there is fallacy in your statements - going off track in third Line.
I never proposed say other than fuselages be JFM built (and ATG/B&V/DwF), but clarification is below.

But Gerneralizing on factories there most be be just one Factory (SAAB) but in real life there are many Branch factories - One large one is "made in Taiwan" etc.
but you skip meanings and purposes of "Zweigwerk" (Branch Factory) or how JFM operated.

So you need call this JFM built (produced) Ju 52/3m (ex JFW / Ifa built before 1935) - never Bernburg built/produced, because 1937 production was from THREE main Junkers Branch Factories (Ascherleben, Halberstadt and Leopoldshall - and Bernburg was "Competion Center" but also a Zweigwerk FZB, others were FZA, FZH and FZL). FSD was Flugzeug Stammwerk Dessau, but also FSD-M (Merseburg) and others.

Please call them JFM produced, FZB assembled/delivered. This is as exact as possible (in my view). Thanks for showing this interest.

Gerhard,
Yes I have plenty of Ju 52 data(info, but the paper logbooks (covering October 1937 onwards) are all still in storage boxes - because present office is a temporary one - Very cold in winter.

But - I Happen to have pictures of the component and main dataplates on Ju 52/3m g4e W.Nr. 6595 HB-HOT - since 2012 at Reykjavik, Iceland - going on its USA tour -Indeed had Bernburg (Bb5) was stamped on JFM Dessau BAL inspection "main plate" 6.9.39 but it still had its Aschersleben ("Trager Mitte") plates (under Serie 35210.54/16) the Centre-Wing-Stubs at wing-root, that actually seem belong to the Fuselage, and these can be seen already attached on Aschersleben pic in post #4.

And copied from old file of mine (not verified figures) but explaining some beginning and progression of Ju 53/3m production.

The first Luftwaffe orders were planned for in August 1933. It contemplated that production plans for 5,845 Ju 52/3m were to be made (in meaning contracted for) by 01.04.1935.
Deliveries of this contract had already begun when on 09.03.1935 the world press was informed of the formation of the (new) Luftwaffe.
Under the ABC program 179 were ordered on 13.12.33 from ATG (wings), Hamburger Flugzeugbau/Blohm & Voss (tails and rear fuselages), Dessauer Waggon Fabrik (fuselages) and Junkers (final assembly). These were to be delivered in 1934. The aim was to exercise more metal aircraft construction (already started by ordering up to 2,000 Ju W 34 from several building firms).
Further 450 Ju 52/3m (Bombers) were ordered under the Rhineland program. Extending this, further 762 were planned (to October 1936). Further were planned for October to December 1936 (JFM 39, ATG 26). In 1937 (JFM 189, ATG 33). Total Auxiliary Bomber orders stood at 1,130 on 01.07.1937. In 1937 monthly allowance for Transport ´C´ Schools was only two per month. In 1938 (Jan to June) only JFM was scheduled for production (370) but large numbers of Auxiliary Bombers were to be rebuilt to Transport standard (285 by WFG). Until 31.12.1938 an total of 292 transports were planned. Another 1,026 were to be built between 01.01.1939 and 30.06.1941. The ATG assembly line was re-opened in 1940 due to still increasing war demand. Amiot started deliveries in late 1942. PIRT made/assembled 32 machines in 1944.

NB. Further queries or questions from Europe must be made in writing, in triplicate (by older copy methods - copy method found only in museums), X-erox not allowed, and quiery posted in Hard-cover DHL B-Mail (surface mail). That guaratees at least 28 days in delivery to my country, and then suffcent time to answer (which I do not have).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot (486) Aschersleben fuselage.jpg (159.7 KB, 39 views)

Last edited by edNorth; 8th October 2018 at 03:22.
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  #12  
Old 8th October 2018, 09:46
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?

Thanks Ed

However, nothing what you say cannot make me change my mind.
Anything which rolls of a production line as a complete unit, is also built there. Makes no difference if you are big enough to have more than one completion center. Then you simply have complete aircraft built at more than one place.

That Junkers choose to have self owned branch factories is of no real interest, except as a fact and that they were sub-suppliers to themselves....

If you want to call the final produced aircraft assembled/produced/delivered is up to you. In my book the aircraft is still built there. There is no need to complicate matters. You can choose to become an industrial researcher as well and dig ever deeper and deeper into how Germany (or other countries) used their industries, but it then gets quite a bit off track of the purpose of TOCH as I see it. At least I am not at all interested in such details, so I suggest we stick to where the aircraft was built, in this case Bernburg

Cheers
Stig
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  #13  
Old 9th October 2018, 01:19
Gerhard Gerhard is offline
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Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?

@edNorth:
Thanks for the exhaustive explanations.

However, each time when we refer to the put-together process of an aircraft we should say "call them JFM produced, FZB assembled/delivered."? This seems to be a bit impractical, isn't it?

What does Boeing at Renton or Everett? What does Airbus at Toulouse or Finkenwerder? They build aircraft.
What does BMW at Munich or Deggendorf? They build cars.

Every big manufacturer today builds something and uses smaller or larger components to accomplish this task.

Ok, you call this technique 'to assemble', most people in the world say 'to build', and anybody knows that there are many suppliers/subcontractors are involved - today and already in 1937.

So we should no longer quibble about words.

Coming to the (unfortunate) HB-HOT:
The part plates on this aircraft have some stamps on them which I cannot identify:


Any idea?

Gerhard
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File Type: jpg HB-HOT_stamp#1X.jpg (9.2 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg HB-HOT_stamp#2X.jpg (7.6 KB, 11 views)
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  #14  
Old 10th October 2018, 04:00
edNorth edNorth is offline
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Re: Ju 52 - beginning of Bernburg production?

Nothing never ever will change my mind.
Several Japansese manufacturers have dedicated assembly factories in UK, Europe or USA. Why use word "built", when components already built. How correct is that?

Pictured both plates 2012 and others. Leopoldshall made tail parts.
Lhf VII (Leitwerk höhenflosse), Lhr VI (Leitwerk höhenruder), Lqr was there too, as stated abowe. But some plates were "newer" than others.
But re pate stamps on that plane, I am not expert in stamps (belive different departments possibly, even individuals, but L for Leipzig was I think ATG, but I have confusing notes on JFM Leipzig too re-Ju 86) but these plates are most likely Leopoldshall.
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