Normandie Squadron 17Jul43 losses

[Nokose]

I ran across the loss of Major Jean-Louis Tulasne and Lieutenant Didier Berguin on the 17Jul43 in the Kursk battle. There was one more shot down listed as Lieutenant Bermen(?). I couldn't find a first name and if this was the correct last name. Does anyone have it?

[Thierry K]

Berguin is Didier Béguin not lost that day.
Bermen is Vermeil , sorry no first name.
From Marcel Albert's biography by Many Souffan
Regards Thierry

[udf_00]

17 Jul 1943
Firmin Vermeil
http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr...gnon/1008.html
Jean Tulasne
http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr_compagnon/988.html

16 Jul 1943
Adrien Bernavon
http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr_compagnon/87.html
Albert Littolff
http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr_compagnon/612.html
Noël Castelain
http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr_compagnon/185.html

14 Jul 1943
Jean de Tedesco
http://www.ordredelaliberation.fr/fr_compagnon/957.html

[Nokose]

Thank you both for the reply. The names were in Russian in the source that I found them. It had all three listed as failed to return to their airfield. That usually implies that they could have been shot down, forced landed somewhere else and later returned or ended up missing in action.

[udf_00]

From a french book I have, Béguin and Vermeil were paired together, Béguin's plane was hit by 2 cannon shells, one in the horizontal stabilizer, the other in the wing near the fuselage (side not precised), one splinter wounding Béguin in the thigh. So could fit in the category "landed somewhere else and later returned".

[Nokose]

Thanks udf 00 for that reply. He probably forced landed if he didn't have to jump. With the wound he could have ended up in a hospital and wasn't reported. I believe the VVS waited a week or two before fully listing you as "MIA". Then again I've found people in the OBD Memorial listed that way and actually returned from an escape and evade to their regiment but the record remained unchanged.

[Nokose]

I was looking at some more information on this air battle on the 17 Jul 1943. Major Jean Tulasne is thought to be buried in Moscow in a grave for an unknown French pilot. I ran across another piece of this story from the day it happen. According to the residents of Kamenka in the afternoon a low flying fighter was being chased by two German fighters which shot down the fighter. It skidded along the ground and fell into a gulley or large ditch. The pilot was ejected from the cockpit and was still alive briefly before dying after two German soldiers arrived. The next day the unknown French pilot (that was established on the 17th by the villagers) was buried at their cemetery. The body was later moved to Moscow after the war. It was believed that it was Tulasne and the family ask that it remain unknown. Could it be instead Lt. Firmin Vermeil who was also listed as MIA? I looked up the location of Kamenka which is at 53°25'23"N 35°35'8"E. On examining the German claims for the 17 Jul 1943 only one claim comes up in that area but its not for a fighter. Stab III/JG 52 Oblt. Rudolf Trepte shot down an Il-2 (5) 17:00 35 Ost/54612 at 100 meters. Considering the height, time of day and it was Trepte's 5th victory could he have been mistaken on the type?

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Nokose

I was looking at some more information on this air battle on the 17 Jul 1943. Major Jean Tulasne is thought to be buried in Moscow in a grave for an unknown French pilot. I ran across another piece of this story from the day it happen. According to the residents of Kamenka in the afternoon a low flying fighter was being chased by two German fighters which shot down the fighter. It skidded along the ground and fell into a gulley or large ditch. The pilot was ejected from the cockpit and was still alive briefly before dying after two German soldiers arrived. The next day the unknown French pilot (that was established on the 17th by the villagers) was buried at their cemetery. The body was later moved to Moscow after the war. It was believed that it was Tulasne and the family ask that it remain unknown. Could it be instead Lt. Firmin Vermeil who was also listed as MIA? I looked up the location of Kamenka which is at 53°25'23"N 35°35'8"E. On examining the German claims for the 17 Jul 1943 only one claim comes up in that area but its not for a fighter. Stab III/JG 52 Oblt. Rudolf Trepte shot down an Il-2 (5) 17:00 35 Ost/54612 at 100 meters. Considering the height, time of day and it was Trepte's 5th victory could he have been mistaken on the type?

Hi Nokose :

The good Kamenka is here : 53.2710095,36.1834377, it's the Kamenka of the Metsensk raïone.

The memorial is located here53.2729407,36.2326562



According my research J.L. tulasne had certainly shoot down by Herbert Rauchfuss of the 2/JG54 in the South east of Bolkov or Karl Schnörrer of tthe 1/JG54 12 ME of Bolkhov.

The buried/unearthed pilot of Kamenka is likely to be Sergeant KARAGODIN Boris Ivanovitch, of the 513th IAP, 415th IAD 15th VA, born August 26, 1923.

German claims
2.05.43 – Uffz. Werner Prinz – 3./JG 51- Yak-1- 64 584: at 1.000 m.- 04.28 – Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 312.

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[James A Pratt III]

An account of their loss is in BCRS vol 5