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  #1  
Old 29th May 2006, 07:34
Black baron Black baron is offline
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Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

13 as I recall. "someone" has claimed that most of his claims had no 38 losses reported on allied side.

Any data on this?
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  #2  
Old 29th May 2006, 21:37
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Your post is a bit confused.

Are you actually talking of Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen of JG2?
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Old 29th May 2006, 22:14
Black baron Black baron is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Yah, Kurt Bueligen. Has 13 P-38's on his record. Someone claimed US records don't show no losses on the dates he claimed em.

Here is the post..


Kurt Bühligen and Erich Rudorffer were overoptimistic about their exploits in Tunisia:

8th January 1943
II./JG 2 was credited with nine P-38s destroyed (three to Bühligen, one to Rudorffer).
Only three P-38s failed to return.

8th February 1943
II./JG 2 was credited with one P-38 destroyed.
No P-38s were lost in these combats.

9th February 1943
II./JG 2 was credited with three P-38s destroyed (two to Rudorffer).
No P-38s were lost in these combats.

15th February 1943
II./JG 2 was credited with ten P-38s destroyed (three to Bühligen, four to Rudorffer).
No P-38s were lost in these combats.

12th March 1943
II./JG 2 was credited with three P-38s destroyed (all to Bühligen).
II./JG 77 was credited with one P-38 destroyed.
No P-38s were lost in these combats.
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Old 30th May 2006, 08:05
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

It is not just the pilot's fault, but the German confirming system as well (altough it was generally strict and good, compared with the others). I guess, you should ask some wingman about these things (why did they 'witnessed' the highly inflated 'air victories' of some high aces - BTW Rudorffer's serious overclaims over the eastern front were discussed here earlier as well)
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Old 30th May 2006, 09:19
Black baron Black baron is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Yes I have heard from Mike Spick that Rudorffer & I think Oesau? he mentioned were bs'ers.

Mainly interested in Bueligen.
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  #6  
Old 30th May 2006, 15:49
Artur PK Artur PK is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

BÜHLIGEN!!!!
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  #7  
Old 1st March 2011, 04:01
Mark R. Mark R. is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

I have a pretty good record of USAAF fighter losses in Tunisia. Here is what I have for P-38 losses on the above named dates:

8-Jan-43 vic Kairouan 1500- 1530 48th FS/14th FG P-38F Lt. Robert H. Woodward (KIA) Bf-109s
8-Jan-43 vic Kairouan 1500- 1530 48th FS/14th FG P-38F Lt Robert P. Kirschke (KIA) Bf-109s?
8-Jan-43 vic Kairouan 1500- 1530 49th FS/14th FG P-38F Lt William J. Hoelle (WIA) Bf-109s?
8-Jan-43vic Kairouan 1500- 1530 49th FS/14th FG P-38F Lt Keith (MIA?) Bf-109s?

8-Feb-43 20 miles NW Gabes1245 - 1305 97th FS/82d FG P-38F Lt William J. Dunn Enemy fighters

9-Feb-43 None

15-Feb-43 None

12-Mar-43 None

Days with numerous verified P-38 losses/without single or pairs of losses or crashlandings at base included/and this is a work in progress converted from excell spreadsheet:



3-Dec-42 vic Gabes 1000 - 1030 94th FS P-38F-LO-1 Lt Jack S. Longseth (MIA)flak?
3-Dec-42 vic Gabes 1000 - 1030 48th FS/14th FG P-38F-LO-1 Capt Carl T. Williams Jr. (KIA)flak
3-Dec-42 vic Djedieda 1500-1530 48th or 49th FS P-38F-LO-1 Lt Robert H. EubankEnemy fighters?
3-Dec-42 vic Djedieda 1500-1530 48th or 49th FS P-38F-LO-1 Lt James R. Tollen (KIA)Enemy fighters?
3-Dec-42 vic Bizerte 1030-1045 27th FS/1st FG P-38F-LO-1 Lt William Drysdale (KIA)Enemy fighters
3-Dec-42 vic Bizerte 1030 - 1045 27th FS/1st FG P-38F-LO-1 Lt David R. Everett (KIA)Enemy fighters
3-Dec-42 vic Bizerte 1030 - 1045 27th FS/1st FG P-38F-LO-1 Lt William K. Long (MIA)Enemy fighters
3-Dec-42 vic Bizerte 1030 - 1045 27th FS/1st FG P-38F-LO-1 Lt William K. HesterEnemy fighters
3-Dec-42 vic Bizerte 1030 - 1045 27th FS/1st FG P-38F-LO-1 Lt John A. Sullivan (s/d and returned)Enemy fighters


5-Dec-42 vic Bizerte1300 - 1330 49th FS/14th FG P-38G-LO-1 Lt Russell F. Guske Bf-109s
5-Dec-42 vic Bizerte1300 - 1330 49th FS/14th FG P-38G-LO-1 Lt John P. Stief (KIA) Bf-109s
5-Dec-42 vic Bizerte1300 - 1330 49th FS/14th FG P-38G-LO-1 Lt Robert F. Elliott Bf-109s
5-Dec-42 vic Bizerte1300 - 1330 49th FS/14th FG P-38G-LO-1 Capt Harold E. Lewis (KIA) Bf-109s
5-Dec-42 Souk el Asga (Arba?)1300 - 1330 49th FS/14th FG P-38G-LO-1 Lt Charles L. Earnhart Bf-109s

18-Dec-42 Tunis1030 - 1130 94th FS/1st FG P-38F-1-LO Lt Norman L. Widen (POW) Lt Anton Hafner
18-Dec-42 Tunis1030 - 1130 94th FS/1st FG P-38F-1-LO Lt George W. Sutcliffe (s/d and returned) II/JG 51?
18-Dec-42 Tunis1030 - 1130 94th FS/1st FG P-38F-1-LO Lt Victor G. Giles (KIA) II/JG 51?
18-Dec-42 Bou Arada 1030 - 1200 94th FS/1st FG P-38F-1-LO Lt Clark O. Jennings (s/d and returned) II/JG 51?


30-Dec-42 Zauara 1030 - 1130 49th FS/14th FG P-38G-1-LO Lt Thomas J. Morris Jr. flak or fighters?
30-Dec-42 Gabes 1100-1130 48th FS/14th FG P-38G-1-LO Lt Clark W. Smith JG 53
30-Dec-42 Gabes 1100-1130 48th FS/14th FG P-38G-1-LO Lt. Virgil H. Smith JG 53
30-Dec-42 Gabes 1100-1130 48th FS/14th FG P-38G-1-LO Lt Carroll JG 53


15-Jan-43 20 N of Bizerte over sea 1420 - 143049th FS/14th FG P-38-F-1-LOCapt William J. Fulmer Bf-109s
15-Jan-43 20 N of Bizerte over sea 1420 - 143049th FS/14th FG P-38-F-1-LOLt Lawrence E. Driver Jr. Bf-109s
15-Jan-43 vic Gabes Unk 96th FS/82d FG P-38-F-1-LO Lt Wayne Jorda Bf-109s?
15-Jan-43 vic Gabes Unk 96th FS/82d FG P-38-F-1-LO Lt. Raymond M. Black Bf-109s?
15-Jan-43 vic Gabes Unk 96th FS/82d FG P-38-F-1-LO Lt. Milo E. Rundall Bf-109s?

23-Jan-43 vic Medenine 0920 - 0940 48th FS/14th FG P-38F-1-LO Lt William F. Schottelkolb (KIA) II/JG 51
23-Jan-43 vic Medenine 0920 - 0940 48th FS/14th FG P-38F-1-LO Lt Guy E. Stuteville (KIA) II/JG 51
23-Jan-43 vic Medenine 0920 - 0940 48th FS/14th FG P-38G Lt Kenneth W. Harley Jr. (KIA) II/JG 51
23-Jan-43 vic Medenine 0920 - 0940 48th FS/14th FG P-38F-1-LO Lt Leo M. Yates (KIA) II/JG 51
23-Jan-43 vic Gafsa 0920 - 0940 48th FS/14th FG P-38F-1-LO Lt Mark K. Shipman II/JG 51
23-Jan-43 vic Gafsa0920 - 0940 48th FS/14th FG P-38G Lt Richard H. Soliday (KIA) II/JG 51

30-Jan-43 vic Gabes1030-1130 96th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Capt. Arthur A. Smedley (POW) Bf-109s
30-Jan-43 vic Gabes1030-1130 96th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Lt. Charles J. Zubarik Bf-109s
30-Jan-43 vic Gabes1030-1130 96th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Lt. Douglas E. Crichton Bf-109s
30-Jan-43 vic Gabes1030-1130 96th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Lt. Frederick J. Delahunt (KIA) Bf-109s
30-Jan-43 vic Gabes1030-1130 96th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Lt. Paul D. Winston Jr. (KIA) Bf-109s

31-Jan-43 Gabes1230-1245 97th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Lt. Leonard E. Pratt Enemy fighters
31-Jan-43 Gabes1230-1245 97th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Lt Harold R. Decker (POW) Enemy fighters
31-Jan-43 Gabes1230-1245 97th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO Lt William A. Knell (MIA) Enemy fighters
31-Jan-43 Unk afternoon 95th FS/82d FG P-38F-1-LO SSG William J. Schildt (shot down/rtned) Bf-110

22-Mar-43 vic Cap Serrat 1330 - 1400 95th FS/83d FG P-38G Lt Oliver B. Hays (MIA) I/JG 53
22-Mar-43 Over the Sea 1400-1430 97th FS/82d FG P-38G Lt Lemuel D. McDaniel (POW) Enemy fighters
22-Mar-43 vic Bizerte 1400-1430 97th FS/82d FG P-38G Lt Lloyd E. Atteberry (KIA) Enemy fighters
22-Mar-43 vic Bizerte? 1400-1430 97th FS/82d FG P-38G Lt Earnest E. McAnulty (sd/r) Enemy fighters

5-Apr-43 vic Tunis 0730 - 0900 96th FS/82d FG P-38G Lt Claude R. Kinsey (POW) Shot down by wingman?
5-Apr-43 N of Cap Bon 0730 - 0900 96th FS/82d FG P-38G Lt Lee H. Lawrence (KIA) Enemy fighters
5-Apr-43 N of Cap Bon 0730 - 0900 97th FS/82d FG P-38G Lt William M. Hieronymus (KIA) Enemy fighters
5-Apr-43 N of Cap Bon 0730 - 0900 97th FS/82d FG P-38G Lt Earnest E. McAnulty (POW) Enemy fighters
5-Apr-43 N of Cap Bon 0730 - 0900 27th FS/1st FG P-38G Lt Donald E. Field (KIA) Enemy fighters
5-Apr-43 N of Cap Bon 0730 - 0900 27th FS/1st FG P-38G Lt Donald Hilgert (KIA) Enemy fighters

Last edited by Mark R.; 1st March 2011 at 16:04.
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  #8  
Old 3rd March 2011, 15:55
Mark R. Mark R. is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Rather than toss a draft list of P-38 kills at you, let me add a bit more refined post to the discussion. Some items may have changed as the previous post was a draft list and I did a bit more digging for this post.

Luftwaffe and Buhligen JG 2 kills against P-38s


26 DECEMBER 1942: There were two P-38F-15-LO losses on the date and at that approximate time claimed by Buhligen. Lts Milton Sahl and Richard B Jones of the 94th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group. Both were lost over Bizerte between 1300 and 1330 local time. But I also have one reference stating JG 53 claimed one B-17 and four P-38s during a raid over Bizerte on that date and at that time (Prien, JG 53, Vol. 2, p. 514 – English version). However, Die Jagdfliegerverbande der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 – Teil 8/II noted on page 74 that JG 53 claimed only ONE P-38 over Bizerta during that same engagement – “dabei konnte eine B-17 abgeschossen werden, während der Abschuss einer P-38 offenbar nicht anerkannt wurde.” Tony Woods’ data for P-38 kills indicates three kills were awarded:

26.12.42 Ltn. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ 5 km E. El Obeid: 3.500 m. 13.32 Film C.2027/I Anerk: Nr.2
26.12.42 Ltn. Paul Marx 4./JG 2 P-38 £ 3 km. N. Jefna: 400 m. 13.35 Film C.2027/I Anerk: Nr.2
26.12.42 Ltn. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ S. Djebel Tebourba: tiefflug 13.40 Film C.2027/I Anerk: Nr.2


8 JANUARY 1943: There were possibly six P-38 losses on that date – five of them at or near Kairouan. The sixth is somewhat uncertain. It appears most were lost between 1500 and 1530 hours. The 14th Fighter Group aircraft were conducting a fighter sweep of Kairouan while the 82d Group was escorting B-26s to Gabes. The 14th Group losses include three P-38s shot down with two pilots killed (Lt Robert H. Woodward and Lt Robert P. Kirschke) and one pilot bailed out and returned (Lt William J. Hoelle). One additional P-38 crashed when it landed at base (Lt Robert J. Moffat). I am not sure if you want to count Moffat as a “shoot down” or not. The 82d data indicating three losses is a bit flakier because only the 112 Squadron Honor Roll web site states that there were two pilots lost on 8 January: Lt Col Roy M. Lowe and Lt Thomas A. White. Lt Pincus P. Taback of the 97th Fighter Squadron made it back to base where his P-38 was destroyed in a crash landing and fire. On the other hand, Steve Blake’s unit history (Adorimini – p. 27) states these events took place on 9 January. The third P-38 (total loss) was from the 95th Fighter Squadron which escorted B-25s to Kalaa Sirira (between Sfax and Tunis). This loss is not mentioned in Blake and is listed only on the 112 Squadron website. If I had to guess, I would say that it was shot down (if actually lost) by JG 77. Prien says III/JG 77 was operating in the southern part of Tunisia that day. As for the discrepancy on dates, I would go with 8 January because there were no Luftwaffe claims for P-38s on the following day (see Tony Woods). The Tony Woods data below indicates Luftwaffe pilots were credited (?) with 10 kills out of 13 P-38s claimed that day:


08.01.43 Ltn. Kurt Bühligen Stab II./JG 2 P-38 £ 20 km. S. Kairouan: 1.500 m. 14.47 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.144
08.01.43 Ltn. Kurt Bühligen Stab II./JG 2 P-38 £ 2 km. W. Djebel Toerl: 1.600 m. 15.29 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.150
08.01.43 Ltn. Kurt Bühligen Stab II./JG 2 P-38 £ S. Djebel el Obeid: 500 m. 15.42 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.153
08.01.43 Uffz. Franz Gäbler 4./JG 2 P-38 £ 20 km. N.E. Kairouan: 4-6.000 m. 14.40 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.148
08.01.43 Uffz. Peter Fasshauer 4./JG 2 P-38 £ W. Djebel Taush: tiefflug 15.33 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.151
08.01.43 Uffz. Franz Gäbler 4./JG 2 P-38 £ 40-50 km. S.W. Kairouan: tiefflug 15.36 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.152
08.01.43 Ltn. Lothar Werner 4./JG 2 P-38 £ S. Djebel el Obeid: tiefflug 15.50 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.154
08.01.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 P-38 £ 50 km. S.W. Kairouan: 100 m. 15.35 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.69
08.01.43 Ltn. Wilhelm Crinius: 113 3./JG 53 P-38 £ 15 km. N.E. Béja: 8.500 m. 13.45 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.295
08.01.43 Fw. Helmut Baumann 5./JG 51 P-38 £ 60 km. W.S.W. Gabes: 200 m. 15.50 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.464
08.01.43 Ofw. Herbert Kaiser: 57 8./JG 77 P-38 £ -Reference: JG 77 Lists f. 2424
08.01.43 Ofw. Arno Potzel: 16 * 9./JG 77 P-38 £ -Reference: JG 77 Lists f. 2424
08.01.43 Uffz. Drehmann: 2 * 7./JG 77 P-38 £ -Reference: JG 77 Lists f. 2424

28 JANUARY: There are two P-38 losses on this date, one attributed to flak and the other to enemy fighters. The first loss was Lt Charles Earnhart of the 49th Fighter Squadron, 14th Fighter Group reported downed by AAA around 1530 hours during a strafing run near Sfax. The unit history identifies Earnhart as a Captain while the mission report states he was a Lt. He was taken prisoner. The second P-38 loss took place about an hour earlier when Lt. George F. Brittin of the 71st Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group was shot down by enemy aircraft “near” Kairouan. Brittin avoided capture and returned to his unit. The mission report states he lost power in his left engine and disappeared going home so whomever bagged him had the advantage of fighting a P-38 with maintenance issues. Tony Woods information is presented below:

28.01.43 Oblt. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ 50 km. S.W. Kairouan: 5.000 m. 14.15 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.101

28.01.43 Fw. Horst Schlick: 15 1./JG 77 P-38 £ -Reference: JG 77 Lists f. 2425
28.01.43 Ofw. Kurt Niederhagen: 4 3./JG 77 P-38 £ -Reference: JG 77 Lists f. 2425


15 FEBRUARY: I am not showing any P-38 losses. In fact, the shoe seems to be on the other foot as the 82d Fighter Group claimed two FW-190s. If I am not mistaken, Andrew Arthy’s book shows two JG 2 aircraft damaged, one with 40% damage and the other crashlanding with 70% damage after an aerial engagement. Tony Woods shows the below listed claims/kills. I am at a loss to explain the large discrepancy as the Americans did not lose multiple P-38s on any of several days leading up to this date. Notice that three pilots claimed multiple kills and a fourth claimed a single kill.

15.02.43 Oblt. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ 15 km. S.W. Fondouk: 6.000 m. 14.59 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.199
15.02.43 Oblt. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ E. Djebel Martila: 5.000 m. 15.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.200
15.02.43 Hptm. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 P-38 £ 10 km. N.W. Hadjel El Aictu: 5.000 m. 15.03 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: ASM
15.02.43 Hptm. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 P-38 £ 10 km. S.O. Sbeitla: 5.000 m. 15.07 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.90
15.02.43 Hptm. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 P-38 £ 8 km. N.E. Sbeitla: 5.200 m. 15.08 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.ASM
15.02.43 Ofw. Kurt Goltzsch 4./JG 2 P-38 £ N. Sbeitla: 6.000 m. 15.09 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.201
15.02.43 Oblt. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ N. Djebel Trozza: 4.000 m. 15.13 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.202
15.02.43 Ofw. Kurt Goltzsch 4./JG 2 P-38 £ N.N.E. Djebel Vratza: 3.500 m. 15.22 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.203
15.02.43 Ltn. Fritz Karch 6./JG 2 P-38 £ W. Djebel Bou Dabouse: 3.500 m. 15.25 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.94
15.02.43 Hptm. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 P-38 £ 15 km. N.W. Pribon: 5.500 m. 15.58 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.95


12 MARCH: I am not showing any P-38 losses. But I have neither the 1st or 82d Group Fighter Group mission reports for this period. The 14th Group had been withdrawn by then. I am relying on the 112 Squadron Honor Rolls for each group, Fighters over Tunisia, and the published unit histories of each group. I try to use three sources (at least one primary) to document each USAAF loss, but in this case it’s not possible until I get to go back to the US National Archives in June. That said, the information I have already is probably 90% or better in terms of accuracy. Tony Woods information is presented below. These below represent the only P-38 claims on that date.

12.03.43 Oblt. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ S.E. Mateur: 1.500 m. 04.27 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
12.03.43 Oblt. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ W. Djebel Trossa: 7.500 m. 14.22 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -
12.03.43 Oblt. Kurt Bühligen 4./JG 2 P-38 £ E. Djebel Siben-Habber: 5.000 m. 14.24 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr. -

Last edited by Mark R.; 3rd March 2011 at 19:14.
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  #9  
Old 4th March 2011, 08:18
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Great Stuff Mark!
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