Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 8th August 2020, 21:18
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,208
paulmcmillan
Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940

Andy I wonder if anyone around here was involved with the Dig and has access to any data plates recovered it may be able to determine if it’s a K or N ?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 8th August 2020, 23:56
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 678
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940

Here is my take on these three losses (combining the threads here and on the RAF Commands forum).
.
I think ‘THE GREATEST SQUADRON OF THEM ALL’, Vol. 1 is one of the best RAF unit histories and that the authors did an excellent job. However when it came to 5/7 October 1940 they were hampered severely by the 603 Squadron ORB itself and that the release of the AIR 81 personnel casualty files was in the distant future.
.
The 603 Squadron F.540 for October 1940 seems to be missing and the F.541 only records operational sorties. Furthermore only one mission for October 7th is recorded (1544-1645 hours). Neither Matthews nor Strawson are mentioned because it seems they were lost on a morning patrol. Just to show how suspect the F.541 is, on the same page a mission for October 8th is placed above that of the 7th ! None of the three men feature in that mission list either so it probably was for the 8th and not the 6th . Also all bar two patrols listed in the F.541 for the entire two months of September and October 1940 are at squadron strength. I suggest many smaller size patrols and scrambles were not recorded and like quite a few other F.541s that it was compiled weeks after the events.
.
I agree with Paul about the AIR 81 files. Quite often for 1939-1940 (at least) these AIR 81 files – or the F.1180 aircraft accident cards – are the only official contemporary evidence for the loss of an aircraft or airmen. In my experience, having seen hundreds of AIR 81 files, the serials often appear with typos as in the case of ‘K9087’ here for K9807. Equally many dates as listed can be out by a day or more. However it is much rarer for the serial to be wrong and to be able to prove it is wrong.
.
Paul rightly cautions about data plates and identity for the aircraft excavated at Godmersham Park. It is noteworthy that Peter Cornwell in ‘THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN, THEN AND NOW’ (1987/1989) writes in some detail about the excavation and objects found for the Matthews aircraft (‘N3109’)at Godmersham Park, but no mention of data plates, etc. If such had been found it was Peter’s practice to note this as positive proof of the aircraft identity.
.
In passing I would also refer to an article about John Strawson in the September 2001 issue of ‘FLYPAST’ magazine by Mark Whitnall. He writes that Strawson was on a morning patrol on October 7th when he was shot down but managed to ditch just offshore in the Thames Estuary and wade onto a beach. The author specifically highlights that Strawson was flying N3109 and that this was confirmed by the Air Historical Branch. Doubtless they were using the then almost unknown AIR 81 file trove as their source ! Furthermore Mark Whitnall notes – as does Peter Cornwell - that Matthews crashed at Godmersham Park at 10.45 a.m. and I mention this as proof of the morning patrol not recorded in the 603 Squadron F.541.
.
The Form 78 aircraft history cards for the three Spitfires record their final fates thus;
K9963 ‘F.B.O. Cat. 3’ 5-10-40.
K9807 ‘F.B.O. (3)’ 7-10-40.
N3109 ‘F.B.O. (3)’ In sea 7-1040.
These match exactly the AIR 81 file details as noted by Alex Smart and taking everything into account I believe all three AIR 81 files correctly identify pilot to aircraft. However none of us have yet viewed these particular AIR 81 files but expect they would back up the above.
.
I hope this adds to the debate and not to the confusion !
.
Regards,
.
Martin Gleeson.

Last edited by Martin Gleeson; 8th August 2020 at 23:58. Reason: Underlining.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 9th August 2020, 13:10
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,208
paulmcmillan
Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940

Martin thanks for the detailed and illuminating reply
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 9th August 2020, 14:41
AndyMa AndyMa is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lincoln UK
Posts: 409
AndyMa is on a distinguished road
Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940

My thanks also to Martin for summarizing the situation.
I'm not an export in this field, but it had also struck me as strange that the ORB entry for 8 October was above that for the 7th, and that many missions were missing.
I guess they had more important things to do at that time...
I'm still curious as to why the Godmersham recovery was said to be N3109 - maybe we will never know.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 9th August 2020, 15:28
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,208
paulmcmillan
Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940

Andy see your PM’s
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 9th August 2020, 16:22
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 4,269
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940

Thank you Gentlemen for you excellent response. It is most welcomed.
Re the 8th before the 7th in the ORB. I thought that it was a typo error to a 6. Was I wrong in that assumption ?
Again my grateful thanks for your continued support over the years.
Alex
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 9th August 2020, 16:47
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,208
paulmcmillan
Re: 603 Squadron Spitfire losses 7 October 1940

I wonder if the lack of detail on the ORB is because maybe It as typed after the “event” It would be interesting if we could find out if the Adjutant was around that week
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Points system in the West Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 27th May 2018 12:49
Unidentified FW 200C Condor losses in 1940 from I./KG 40 Martin Gleeson Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 10 27th September 2011 01:47
Any dispute about interpreting the BofB? tcolvin Allied and Soviet Air Forces 57 17th October 2010 22:31
Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940. Martin Gleeson Allied and Soviet Air Forces 34 3rd October 2010 18:00
56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed Lagarto Allied and Soviet Air Forces 28 13th March 2005 00:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net