France 1940

[cpaige5@hotmail.com]

Its been a long time since I last posted.

When we talked about the heavy losses suffered in the French campaign. I can't seem to find the real loses, even Peters book on the campaign doesn't give the exact loses. My question is: How many German airmen PoWs were taken to Britian and were out of the war? How many were captured by the French and later released?

It's not me! I am innocent!

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by cpaige5@hotmail.com

Its been a long time since I last posted.

When we talked about the heavy losses suffered in the French campaign. I can't seem to find the real loses, even Peters book on the campaign doesn't give the exact loses. My question is: How many German airmen PoWs were taken to Britian and were out of the war? How many were captured by the French and later released?

I'm intrigued by your post. If Peter's recent book doesn't give the exact losses, what information do you have that can be added to the information in Peter's book? I'm sure that I, and many others on this forum, would be most interested to obtain the information that you have which has passed Peter by completely.

Originally Posted by cpaige5@hotmail.com

(...)I can't seem to find the real losses, even Peter's book on the campaign doesn't give the exact losses. My question is: How many German airmen PoWs were taken to Britian and were out of the war? How many were captured by the French and later released?

Did you really look at Peter's book well? On pages 528-529, called "The Balance Sheet", you'll find the losses of all waring parties in :

A. Aircraft losses (destroyed, missing or abandoned AC only so damaged AC, however heavily damaged (less than 60 % for the Luftwaffe), are not included);

B. Personnel, i.e. almost exclusively aircrew including observers, navigators, bomb-aimers, gunners etc. killed, missing or taken prisoners including those who were released (mainly Germans) after a few days to... about 10 months, for some German aircrew were captured already in Sept. 1939 (Allied aircrew too).

IIRC 715 members of the Luftwaffe were prisoners of the FRENCH. Sadly the French government failed to transfer them to the UK so they couldn't fight again. This includes Major Werner Mölders, shot down by a D.520 on June 5. We should remember, however, that all the very numerous Flak-soldiers (except those serving with the German Navy) were members of the Luftwaffe too. Even the smallest Flak-gun - 20 mm, only one barrel - needed about 5-6 men, not to mention the 88s. So certainly some Luftwaffe prisoners were Flak soldiers. How many? I don't know, probably a few hundred.

The British handed over a number of prisoners to the French (probably when they had no other choice) but, conversely, they spirited as many as they could to the UK including, of course, many who had been shot down by the French but captured by British troops.

From some British authors or commentators it is a gross exaggeration to claim that "the RAF" had shot down many German aircrew but the horrible frogs had released them after the Allied defeat so "we had to shoot them down a second time". Most German aircrew who were prisoners of the French had been shot down by the French too, a few by the British but the reverse was true. Nevertheless yes, it is very sad that these POWs and all others, by the way, were not handed over to the UK in due time. One more stupidity performed by senile French generals aged 65-83 or so (and 1940 unlike today you were really old at the age of 65). Of course they were still in the illusion that according to all rules the Germans, too, would release their French prisoners (over 1.2 million or so including a few dozen to a few hundred aircrew). Here too they were to be disappointed.

The real importance of these releases of German aircrew by France should not be overvalued, however. For example, among German fighter pilots 56 were prisoners, of which 36 were released after the Allied defeat. (Source : J. Prien JG series, volume 3, pages 62-63). 83 others were killed or missing, 51 wounded. These figures do not include the crews of Me 110s (approx. 20 % of the mentioned figures - just a quick assessment). So it seems that 20 Me 109-pilots remained prisoners of Britain and were able to enjoy exquisite English or Scottish food for 5-6 years (this could be considered "inhumane treatment", "torture" and "war crimes"!). On May 4, 1940, the Luftwaffe had 1,121 Me 109-pilots (add the Me 110-pilots, about 250 to 280?), of which 984 were ready for combat (operational)[same source : J. Prien, page 66].

Probably the proportion (percentage or %) of the total number of German aircrew of all kinds (gunners etc.) who were POWs and were sent to the UK was about the same as for fighter pilots : 20/56, which is 35.71 %. Perhaps someone can help us with the total number of German aircrew who were taken prisoners from September 1939 through June 1940. If not, we can get a pretty good approximation on the basis of the number of all prisoners as compared to the number of all aircrew killed, the latter being, according to P. Cornwell, 3,278 for the Luftwaffe, which is amply sufficient for statistical calculations. 83 fighter pilots were killed or missing (most of the missing ones never came back; likewise some 1940 French and British aircrew are still missing today, like French fighter pilot Lt Weiss and many others) and 56 such pilots were POWs, which is about 67.47 % of the number of killed fighter pilots (but these numbers are not quite large enough). So 3,278 German aircrew having been killed (all causes including accidents), if we take 67.47 % of this figure we get 2,212 POWs, of which 715 were prisoners of the French (assuming they all were aircrew only with no Flak personnel) so roughly 1,500 were sent to the UK, later to gorgeous Canada to enjoy themselves, a great improvement as compared to British food in the UK! Many of these became POWs in Norway and in the UK 1939-40 but also over France and the Benelux-countries.

So an evaluation would be 1,500 German aircrew who were POWs in the UK at the end of June 1940... assuming that all LW-members who were prisoners of the French were aircrew with no Flak-soldiers, which I can't guarantee. Who can? Hello? Someone out there who knows this?

[Stig Jarlevik]

So it seems that 20 Me 109-pilots remained prisoners of Britain and were able to enjoy exquisite English or Scottish food for 5-6 years (this could be considered "inhumane treatment", "torture" and "war crimes"!).

Guys
If any remained in Scotland and was belt fed Haggies for the remaining years, I agree, it would be a case for the Geneva convention and surely a present case for a Hague intervention.... I once tried this so called delicacy and I am glad I got away not bypassing Edinburgh emergency on the way... On the other hand nothing that a nice dram coudn't fix...
(Sorry, just couldn't resist)

Cheers
Stig

Now at last we know why those German prisoners were not handed over to the British : it was a humane gesture on the part of the French, who use to eat decent food and couldn't imagine to send even their worst enemies to the country of boiled beef meat with jam and peppermint as well as PORRIDGE* . The Germans were still grateful 1944 and abstained from destroying Paris.

* I dare not even mention haggis. I experienced it once, which is clear enough.

[cpaige5@hotmail.com]

I find it intersting that the Dutch handed over 1300 Pows to the British, many being Luftwaffe paratroops but their would be some JU52 transport crews and bomber crews included (and at least 1 fighter pilot who was interviewed for a book about his shot down and experiences in Canada). Who would make the decison to hand them over to the British?

A lot of high ranking Luftwaffe personal were captured by the French. Looks like the French put up a good fight in the air. Too bad, many of these got to continue the fight after their release.

I'm intriqued beause my great uncle looked after the Pows when they first came here in Canada in the summer of 1940. My grandmother told me they were young, handsome but arogant.