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  #11  
Old 21st December 2018, 10:58
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Johannes,

Your words:
The Luftwaffe, were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces.

There are plenty of instances of the Luftwaffe overclaiming as bad as any other airforce, and plenty of instances of other airforces claiming just as accurately as the Luftwaffe. Many publications from recent times deal with both sides of some of the various aerial campaigns the Luftwaffe was involved in. Suffice it to say, can we really continue to hold to the contention that the German "system" was ever so accurate?

On 15th February 1943 II./JG 2 encountered the US 1st and 82nd FGs and claimed an entire TEN victories over P-38 Lightnings. Of that ten victories EIGHT were confirmed by this "ever-so-fantastic" German confirmation system. NOT ONE SINGLE P-38 WENT DOWN IN THE ENGAGEMENT.
SOURCE: Focke Wulf 190 in North Africa by Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen. pp. 108, 160-161

On 9th July 1944 II./JG 26 encountered 453 sqn RAAF over Normandy and Emil "Bully" Lang claimed 3 Spitfires shot down. All of them were confirmed by the "ever-so-rigid" German confirmation system but again, bugger-all were actually shot down.
SOURCES: JG 26 War Diary Part 2 by Donald Caldwell pp. 299-300
2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 2 pp. 212-213 by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas.


Your words again:

What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims.

In the light of the above, the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...
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  #12  
Old 21st December 2018, 15:28
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Johannes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.
I really do not care about reputation of Luftwaffe, an arm of a criminal regime. I rather mean that the statements are abusive to understanding the history. As yet nobody has done any comparison study of claims, credited victories and losses, and likely never will due to lack of documents. Therefore statement that Luftwaffe victories were more accurate than any other (or most of it) is just unfounded.

Quote:
My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.
I understand the proper approach should be, what he claimed first, what has been initially verified, and what was finally credited. Only after that it is possible to check if any of those claims/victories match to any losses/combats. Aside, I am not sure if victories of so late period of the war were ever confirmed or approved.

Quote:
My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.
As long as we do not know, how the verification process looked like and what were differences between JG 2 and JG 26 subordination in this regard, we cannot make such statements. My impression is, that intelligence officer quickly received a list of wrecks found, and then did a preliminary elimination of claims. Therefore JG 26 looks much better on paper, but we do not know the reality. We also do not know, how many of the victories were shared ones. Plus of course, JG 26 got credit for aircraft lost to another reason.

Quote:
Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.
During the night all cats are grey. I am talking about day operations in large numbers. There are numerous instances of aircraft going down to technical reasons, collisions, friendly fire, flak and other. I did not do research for any large scale, selected combats only, so no general conclusion, but a statement of fact.

Best regards

Franek
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  #13  
Old 21st December 2018, 15:52
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is online now
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now...
It's a lot safer if you translate anerkannt as "recognised" or "accredited", I think.
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  #14  
Old 21st December 2018, 16:46
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Guys

Firstly Franek it is true that crash-sites were investigated, claims against the Russian's were usually behind enemy lines, so no chance there, with JG2 they claimed a lot over the sea, again not much chance to investigate there.

As Nick states Emil Lang was with JG26, yet still managed to overclaim. We(TOCH) had established that Lang had a couple of months of huge claims in Russia, this was worked with his rottenflieger Reinhold Hoffmann a pure case of each confirming the others claims.....mostly non-existant, yet another of Lang's rottenflieger Alfred Gross doesn't appear to have been part of this, when Hoffmann and Lang part company their claims became unspectacular! You would imagine that he would not be able to achieve such crimes with JG26, however he was with the Stab.II./JG26, and very possibly flew only with Alfred Gross, therefore able to maintain the deception within a generally honest Geschwader.


As Nick has established II./JG2 had a horrendous record of overclaiming in Afrika, but the JG26 as above......one man making the others look bad. The ever so fantastic claims system should work, but they didn't consider like minded abusers of the system, basically you couldn't do it alone.


As for the Luftwaffe being part of an evil regime, I should imagine that there was a higher percentage of hard-liners here than in the army, but most pilots were not like this and only wanted to get through the war, and many not to talk about it again. Wasn't Heinz Knoke shunned at reunions for his political views! Anyway TOCH is to talk about the Luftwaffe not Nazism., but I have noticed that hard-liners were very often the worst over-claimers.


regarding other Airforces overclaiming just check USAAF gunners claims 340 claims one day to Luftwaffe twenty loses, and what about Douglas Bader, seems every Nation has it's liars.

With Georg-Peter Eder all I am trying to establish is where the twelve jet kills data came from? As to his claims there pattern doesn't look like an overclaimers i.e huge numbers over a short period...….again opportunism with a corruptible rottenflieger, Eder seems not to have used a regular rottenflieger, and as Nick points-out III./JG2 was the least scoring of JG2's Gruppen……………….but unless expertly cross-examined I don't know the truth, and contrary to what you say claims are being cross-examined......by Nick for a start.


Kind Regards


Johannes
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  #15  
Old 21st December 2018, 22:53
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Guys
Firstly Franek it is true that crash-sites were investigated, claims against the Russian's were usually behind enemy lines, so no chance there, with JG2 they claimed a lot over the sea, again not much chance to investigate there.
Overclaim over sea is higher not only because it is not possible to count wrecks but also because no crashsites are not visible, which makes assessment rather difficult. On the ground you could see crashsite, smoke, wreck, etc.

Quote:
As Nick states Emil Lang was with JG26, yet still managed to overclaim. We(TOCH) had established that Lang had a couple of months of huge claims in Russia, this was worked with his rottenflieger Reinhold Hoffmann a pure case of each confirming the others claims.....mostly non-existant, yet another of Lang's rottenflieger Alfred Gross doesn't appear to have been part of this, when Hoffmann and Lang part company their claims became unspectacular! You would imagine that he would not be able to achieve such crimes with JG26, however he was with the Stab.II./JG26, and very possibly flew only with Alfred Gross, therefore able to maintain the deception within a generally honest Geschwader.
Can you prove that Lang intentionally produced fake combat reports?

Quote:
As Nick has established II./JG2 had a horrendous record of overclaiming in Afrika, but the JG26 as above......one man making the others look bad. The ever so fantastic claims system should work, but they didn't consider like minded abusers of the system, basically you couldn't do it alone.
A lot depends on circumstances. New environment, enemy's numerical advantage, there are several reasons for overclaim. Before you call someone dishonest you must prove that he produced fake report in bad faith.

Quote:
As for the Luftwaffe being part of an evil regime, I should imagine that there was a higher percentage of hard-liners here than in the army, but most pilots were not like this and only wanted to get through the war, and many not to talk about it again. Wasn't Heinz Knoke shunned at reunions for his political views! Anyway TOCH is to talk about the Luftwaffe not Nazism., but I have noticed that hard-liners were very often the worst over-claimers.
Despite post-war claims and allegations, no doubt due to requirements of the Cold War, Luftwaffe was considered quite a hard-core formation, and I do not see a pattern of Nazis and non-Nazis do not appearing together. I guess it was rather a matter of personal liking. And I do not see any reason to not to discuss such matters.

Quote:
regarding other Airforces overclaiming just check USAAF gunners claims 340 claims one day to Luftwaffe twenty loses, and what about Douglas Bader, seems every Nation has it's liars.
There is no problem with overclaim itself. The problem is with your words. What is your evidence that USAAF gunners were liars, or that Bader was a liar? I mean intentional providing false reports on enemy losses.

Quote:
With Georg-Peter Eder all I am trying to establish is where the twelve jet kills data came from? As to his claims there pattern doesn't look like an overclaimers i.e huge numbers over a short period...….again opportunism with a corruptible rottenflieger, Eder seems not to have used a regular rottenflieger, and as Nick points-out III./JG2 was the least scoring of JG2's Gruppen……………….but unless expertly cross-examined I don't know the truth, and contrary to what you say claims are being cross-examined......by Nick for a start.
I understand that, and and I am fully aware that a lot of bogus information are around, never supported by any evidence.
You cannot fully cross-check claims/victories vs losses without combat reports and narratives. Coincidence of time and place may be misleading. It is simple.

Best regards

Franek
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  #16  
Old 22nd December 2018, 10:33
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hello Johannes,

It will be up to you to determine if the following pieces of information are connected or not, and if they are relevant to your inquiry.

1. From flamesofwar.com Stormbirds: the Messerschmitt Me 262 "Stormvogel" with Mike Haught & James Brown:

"My first kill on the Me 262 came almost by accident, you could say. I had taken off in an attempt to intercept a high-flying reconnaissance Lightning. Ground-control vectored me on the target faultlessly. Not that it was difficult to spot, for he was drawing a nice broad condensation trail in his wake.

I approached out of the sun from behind and slightly above. When about 80 m (262 ft.) distant I ducked into the condensation trail, casting a quick glance down to check my instruments and gun indicator lights. When I looked up again a split second later, the Lightning filled my windscreen. I tried desperately to pull above him, but it was too late. There was an almighty crash, and then he disappeared.

I waited for a few seconds, expecting a wing to fall off, or an engine to flame out. But nothing of the sort happened. Just a few nasty dents, but my crate continued to fly."

-- Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder, 7. Jagdgeschwader


2. From post No. 12 by Jochen Prien in the following thread:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=43152

"... Hptm. Eder in particular did not file a claim on this day [6 Oct 1944], the P-38 that was mentioned earlier on as an 'early October claim' was the result of an erroneous reconstruction of an interview he gave many years ago, the correct date of this claim being 18 November 1944..."

3. From Prien etal., Die Jagdfliegerverbande … Teil 13/II, pp. 398-399:

"Sonnabend, 18 November 1944...
...Das Kdo. Nowotny meldete am spaten Vormittag den Abschuss einer P-38 sudostlich Schleissheim durch einem Flugzeugfuhrer der 1. Staffel; bei dem abgeschossenen Zweimot. handelte es sich offenbar um einen allein eingeflogenen Aufklarer, moglicherweise Eine P-38 H der 154th (Weather) Recce. Sqd. der 15th USAAF...
"

best regards,

Jim

Last edited by Karoband; 23rd December 2018 at 12:15.
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  #17  
Old 23rd December 2018, 02:59
Russell Russell is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi all

Hermann Buchner held some interesting conversations with Chris Shores when he stayed at Chis's house many years ago. One of the topics they discussed was Georg Eder. Buchner said he flew as no 2 to Eder when he was in JG 7, and that if Eder made a claim then there was little doubt in Buchners mind that it was a shot down aircraft. Unfortunately Buchner had no dates or any other details. Also I understand that after he died Eder's combat reports were sold by his widow, and that this collection included all of his jet claims, none of which I have seen. I have seen the forms (on the web) for the two Spitfires on 17 August 1944, which Johannes appears not to have judging from his helpful spreadsheet.

Cheers

Russell
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  #18  
Old 23rd December 2018, 10:13
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hello,

Here is one of the listings of Georg-Peter Eder's claims:

http://www.cieldegloire.fr/001_eder_p_g.php

Why do they bother?

Col
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  #19  
Old 23rd December 2018, 11:19
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Col

Many thanks for getting involved.

This abschusselist is a combination of details from the mikrofilms coupled with the jet claims, however I do not believe it is correct, the mikrofilms are reliable until 3rd December 1944, yet not a single claim is recorded for Eder, yet everybody else is included, if other pilots claims were excluded as well you can imagine a breakdown in recording the claims, but it seems to be just Eder's, therefore personally I have concluded that ALL his confirmed claims must have taken place after 3rd December 1944 yet before 22nd February 1945.


Kind Regards


Johannes
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  #20  
Old 23rd December 2018, 11:24
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Jim

Thanks for your input. If this story is factual then the P-38 claim was not confirmed, in fact the story states that the P-38 disappeared, therefore Eder wouldn't have seen it crash.


In the late 1970's I read in a book an Eder story, he shoots down four Allied aircraft, then gets shot-down himself, he thought from return-fire from a B-17 above him, he is badly wounded/injured and somebody within his ambulance congratulates him on his "four kills", yet this is not reflected in his abschusselist. Then he states that after his surrender the Americans starved him, which went on, but he states his weight dropped from 180 lbs to 98 lbs, he would himself have talked in kilograms anyway!


Kind Regards


Johannes
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