The great camouflage & markings debate

[Adam]

Richard, Nick,

I spoke directly to the curator of large objects - a Mr John White - who gave the impression the aircraft's paint scheme had only been 'repaired' (for want of a better term) the once. My advice would be to contact John White at the AWM directly. His relevants are:

john.white@awm.gov.au

Alternatively (and depending upon who's paying the international phone call), you can call John, though for ease of contact I suggest calling the main office and asking to be put through to either John or the Large Objects curating section (both only available Mon-Fri) - depending upon who is available. The phone number is:

+61-2-6243-4211

There is also a research section at the AWM, though I'm not sure quite how much information they would have on the aircraft. It can be contacted through

info@awm.gov.au or on +61-2-6243-4315


As a lst resort, the AWM's postal address is

GPO Box 345
Canberra, ACT
Australia 2601

regards and good luck

Adam

[DaveM2]

Looking at original colour photos 'before' and having seen the aircraft 'after', it looks like a complete make over of the paint.there are no 'patches' of paint as per the non restored finish. The original wax finish was still extant previous to the repaint as well

regards
Dave

[Franek Grabowski]

Richard, sorry, I am confused what is the goal you are trying to achieve?

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear Franek, et al,

Thanks for your added inputs. The project has the URL of this thread and have checked it as input suggestions have come in. Adam, thank you especially for the contact info at the AWM.

Franek, ideally, it would be great to have C&M on W.Nr. 191660 identical to what was originally on it. If we can find such in adequate time, that could be done. But, lacking that, the second route is to match the original paint and utilize the paint scheme that was on W.Nr. 191907 at the AWM as a guide to restoring W.Nr. 191660 with an authentically appearing generic C&M. What original information on the C&M of W.Nr. 191660 could be incorporated if it can be made available in a timely manner. I hope that answers your question.

David McDonald and Alan Scheckenbach have been especially helpful in making contact with those that had been involved in the 1997 restoration effort of W.Nr. 191660 at Duxford. Amongst the contacts, Russ Snadden has claimed categorically that the various parts are all to one aircraft, claiming that stories to the contrary are all false. That is good news.

From Legend Flyers, one wing's wing root rib bears a data plate with the following information:

Sach-Nr 8 163 524
Werk-Nr 191 400
Hersteller: eKO or cKO

In paint on the rib is W-Nr. 660. My guess is that 8 163 425 is either the drawing number for the rib or represents the entire wing and that 191 400 is the W.Nr. for the part or wing. Can anyone help with this?

With the help of so many of you, it seems like daily we are getting closer to the ideal state.

Regards,
Richard

[ChrisMAg2]

Originally Posted by Richard T. Eger

Dear Franek, et al,

Thanks for your added inputs. The project has the URL of this thread and have checked it as input suggestions have come in. Adam, thank you especially for the contact info at the AWM.

Franek, ideally, it would be great to have C&M on W.Nr. 191660 identical to what was originally on it. If we can find such in adequate time, that could be done. But, lacking that, the second route is to match the original paint and utilize the paint scheme that was on W.Nr. 191907 at the AWM as a guide to restoring W.Nr. 191660 with an authentically appearing generic C&M. What original information on the C&M of W.Nr. 191660 could be incorporated if it can be made available in a timely manner. I hope that answers your question.

Reminder:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...?showtopic=594
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=2041

Originally Posted by Richard T. Eger

David McDonald and Alan Scheckenbach have been especially helpful in making contact with those that had been involved in the 1997 restoration effort of W.Nr. 191660 at Duxford. Amongst the contacts, Russ Snadden has claimed categorically that the various parts are all to one aircraft, claiming that stories to the contrary are all false. That is good news.

From Legend Flyers, one wing's wing root rib bears a data plate with the following information:

Sach-Nr 8 163 524
Werk-Nr 191 400
Hersteller: eKO or cKO

In paint on the rib is W-Nr. 660. My guess is that 8 163 425 is either the drawing number for the rib or represents the entire wing and that 191 400 is the W.Nr. for the part or wing. Can anyone help with this?

With the help of so many of you, it seems like daily we are getting closer to the ideal state.

The "Sach-Nr" reads like this:
"8" General aircraft constructional equipment/ part/ section
"163" The assigned RLM # of the aircraft (Me 163)
"524" IIRC it referrs to a drawing or layout#.

The Werk-Nr is the manufacturer's serial # of this part or assembly.

[Michael Louey]

Hi Richard,

I have been reading this discussion with interest. Being a modeller and Australian - I try to keep an eye out for information on 'our' 163. Unfortunately it has been in Canberra ever since I remember and I'm in Melbourne so I haven't had a chance to look at it in its current state yet. If you haven't done so, you should check Rob de Bie's fine Me 163 site. There are many photos and extensive notes on all the 163 survivors with colour notes. This page is on the AWM 163 and gives a history and period colour photos of the aircraft. http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/australia.htm

Somewhere on cd's or my old pc hard disk I also have some pre 'restoration' colour photos of the 163 taken by John Hopton on his now closed website. They are different to the ones posted on Rob's site but may/may not add more detail - Colour photos seem to be affected by the film type/lighting conditions and I have seen different photos of the AWM 109G showing dramatically different colour appearances based on what lighting was used (artificial/outdoor/cloudy/sunny)

Cheers

Michael

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear All,

Some good news. While reported earlier that Flying Legends believed there was no original paint on their aircraft, Russ Snadden joined the discussion off-site and vehemently insisted that there was. Work was halted on the started paint removal on the undersides of the wings and, sure, enough, by use of a scalpel, it was determined that there were 4 layers of camouflage paint and a reddish-brown primer. The bottom camouflage color matched the "1/72 Scale Light Blue 76" on page 7 of the 1980 Monogram guide. The following is exactly what Bob Hammer reported to me:

"I scraped off the flaking outer coat which we know is not original. The
2nd layer was a dirty white almost beige. The 3rd layer was a light
green. The 4th layer, I believe, is original. I matched this with the
color chips in Merrick's 1980 Guide, as shown in the attached photos.
The 1/32 scale light blue 76 was very close. the 1/72 scale light blue
76 was exactly the same shade. (The photo does not show this very well
but Nick, Maureen, and I feel its this shade.) The 5th layer is the
reddish brown primer."

With this fortunate reversal of fortune, it should be possible to ascertain the original camouflage colors and markings on this aircraft.

Christian, I alerted Maureen, the project's office manager, to the URL for the restoration photos of their aircraft. I also agree with your assessment of the dataplate information.

Michael, we would be interested in seeing any pre-restoration color photos of the AWM Me 163 for the guidance that they can provide.

Regards,
Richard

[ChrisMAg2]

Congrats, Richard, on the interessting news. I'm happy for you, you were able to retrieve lots of help and information here.

[Michael Louey]

Hi Richard,

I've sent you a private message about the AWM Me 163.

Best wishes with your restoration.

Regards

Michael

[Franek Grabowski]

Richard, I hope the lesson was learned and every attempt will be made to preserve original colour coating for future generations. If you want a smoot new finish, a standard procedure is to put a protective coat, on which you can apply a finish of your own.
If you need more information and contact to the experts, drop me an email.
Cheers