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Old 12th August 2019, 14:38
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

In recent years, in response to the Russian people's thirst for historical knowledge of WW2, the Ministry of Armies of the Russian Federation has begun digitizing and putting online its archives (Tsamo).
the phenomenal work finally makes it possible to approach the history of Normandy-Niemen under a real historian's approach.
Until now only a memory work was undertaken with all the inherent "scientific bias". Only the positive points, specific to the construction of Heroes were retained. the testimonies collected from the pilots only reinforcing this soil already too fertile, one is currently in a situation more romantic than historical.

It is difficult for one person to master perfectly the documents, French, Russian and German on all the protagonists involved in the Gumbinen offensive.
That's why a collective job, or all members would bring their knowledge would be incredibly effective.

The first of the works and list all the units of the Luftwaffe that could potentially meet the Normandy-Niemen during the month of October 1944.

I give you my list certainly incomplete, that luftwaffe specialists (that I am not) will correct.

10 / SG1 counting 21 Ju87 based in Shippenbeil.
10 (Pz) SG3 counts 12 Ju87 based in Hüttenfelde.
II / SG1 counting 39 FW190 based in Gerdauen.
I / SG4 with 26 FW 190 based in Insterburg.
IV / SG9 counting 10 Hs129 based in Shippenbeil.
13 / SG4 comtant 19 Hs129 based in Jurgenfeld.
Stab JG / 52 based in Jurgenfeld.
I / JG52 counting 33 Me 109 based in Ebenrode then Jurgenfeld.
III / JG52 counting 27 Me 109 based in Jurgenfeld then Lobellen.
I / JG51 counting 21 Me 109 based in Lobellen.
III / JG51 counting 25 Me 109 based in Pillau.
3 (F) AufKl.GR22: flying on Ju-188 based in Powunden.
2 (F) Aufkl. GR11: flying on Ju-88 based in Jesau
5 (F) AufKl.GR122: flying Ju-88 and Ju 188 based in Jesau.

This list covers all types of aircraft shot down by Normandy-Niemen but, there is an incredible defect in FW190.
The French declares having shooted 82! Whereas he was only fifty based in East Prussia.

Does anyone know if any of the JG54 elements that were in Lithuania intervened in East Prussia?
Was there any other unit flying on FW-190 that I forgot?

Thanks for your Help,

Fallowing Step : The maps (soviet, german gradnetz)

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 15th August 2019 at 14:05.
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  #2  
Old 15th August 2019, 14:17
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

To have a common hangout here is a link to the Fliegerkarte N34-NO Tilsit 1 / 500.000

and a map of the front day by day.

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Old 15th August 2019, 14:47
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

To start with, here is a summary of the operations of the 303 IAD (Combat Aircraft Division), consisting of 4 regiments, 18th GvIAP, 138 GvIAP, 1 OIAP "Normandy" and 523 IAP.
During the day the division flew 131 aircraft, for a total of 228 hours of flights.
They claimed 50 victories for 28 aerial combat. (What will cause a lot of worries when it will be necessary to go into details)....
36 FW-190, 9 Me-109 and Ju87. Four other FW-190s were reported to have destroyed the ground during the attack on the airfield at Juckstein-Budupenen Airfield (Lobellen in the Luftwaffe documents, Ragnit for the French).

the division deplores the loss of a single plane a Yak-9u 139 Gv IAP who crasy during the come back from a mission, pilot was save.
That day the JG51 claims 5 yak-9 in kleintrapez 363--, 367--, 368-- and two in 266--.
These victories do not concern the 3rd Biolorussian Front, on which the 303 IAD depends, but the 1st Baltic Front.
The reports of the 135 IPA should be peeled off and it should be checked whether it can be linked to a victory of the SG4, which is operating there between the Soviet airfield and the front line.

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 18th August 2019 at 14:21. Reason: adding information
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Old 15th August 2019, 15:40
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

The two units you mention add up to 65 Fw190 not to 50. However, losses would be replaced so that the total number participating in the campaign would be higher.
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Old 15th August 2019, 16:36
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Boak View Post
The two units you mention add up to 65 Fw190 not to 50. However, losses would be replaced so that the total number participating in the campaign would be higher.
The number indicated represents the planes present on October 1st, it does not take into account the variations during the Month. He is there to give an order of idea.
Thank you for correcting 26 + 39 = 65.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:43
Charles Bavarois Charles Bavarois is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

Luftwaffe used to report their losses in many different ways. One are the “Namentliche Verlustmeldungen NVM”, which were filed when somebody was killed, wounded or went missing. When comparing numbers in aircraft there are the “Generalquartiermeister-Meldungen GQM” listing aircraft damaged more than 10% and total losses. These reports are missing for 1944.

There are two other sources: The “Flugzeugbewegungsmeldungen”, filed on a monthly basis and showing the number of aircraft available, received und lost for each unit. And somebody made summaries out of the GQMs (“Summarische Verlustmeldungen”), showing only the date and cause of an aircraft loss for each unit. Both reports do not always correspond exactly, as they were filed at different times by different people according to the information available to them at the time of writing. But they can give you a quite useable hint, what did happen.

The “Summarische Verlustmeldungen” for II./SG 1 and I/SG 4 show
14 Fw 190 total losses due to enemy fighters and 2 to AAA in October 1944 . No MIA and only one damaged by AAA. Another 6 were lost and also 6 damaged without enemy action. That makes a loss of 17 a/c due to enemy action (16 total and one to repair).

The Flugzeugbewegungsmeldungen for October 1944 show a loss of 17 a/c due to enemy action and 7 without enemy action.

Even allowing for some minor gaps in the German reports, looks like the Germans lost not more than perhaps 20 Fw 190 in October 1944 with II/SG 1 and I/SG 4.

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Old 16th August 2019, 18:51
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

After the 303 IAD (fighters division), here is a summary of the bombing division, for October 16th, 1944.

176 ADB:
15:16: KIRBATAI bombing by 16 Pe-2 of the 34 BAP (bombardment regiment). protected by 4 Yak-9d of 139 IAP. The Pe-2 are attacked by 6 FW-190, 2 shot by them.
Same time same place: 18 Pe-2 of 58 BAP by 12 Yak-9d of 303 IAD.
Same time same place: 21 Pe-2 of 140 BAP protected by 8 Yak-9d of 139 IAP.
No aircraft loosed.

6 GvBAD:
11:25:26 Pe-2 and 18 Boston A20 protected by 15 Yak-3 from 303 IAD (presumably IOAP "Normandy") bomb Podzishki (25431).
11:50: 35 Pe-2 and 9 Boston A20 protected by 20 Yak-3 and Yak-9 bombard Sodeni (25492).
14:58:37 Pe-2 protected by 12 Yak-3 and Yak-9 bomb Virbalis and Eidtkunen.
16:57: 6 Pe-2 protected by 6 Yak-3 and Yak-9 bombard Virbalis.
17:22: 23 Pe-2 protected by 6 Yak-3 and Yak-9 bombard the forest to the south Virbalis.
134 tons of bombs are dropped. 1 Boston is shooted by the Flak (Crash on 35337) and Pe2 by enemy fighters (in 25486). No Pe2 is claims by the Luftwaffe that day.

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 21st August 2019 at 15:22.
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Old 21st August 2019, 14:32
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

summary of the victories of the 303 IAD for october 1944.
523 ° IAP: 3 Me-109.
139 GvIAP: 6 Me-109, 17 FW-190, 1 Do-217: 24 victories
18 GvIAP: 2 Me-109, 48 FW-190: 50 victories.
1 OIAP "Normandy": 23 Me-109, 71 FW-190, 7 Ju-87, 4 Hs-129, 2 Ju-88: 107 victories. Officially, there is a case of overclaimings concerning 1 pilot about 4 victories ..

Total: 34 Me-109, 136 FW-190, 7 Ju-87, 4 Ys-129, 2 Ju-88, 1 Do-217.

German losses for the same period.
61 Me-109.
18 FW-190 (perhaps 20 according to Charles BAVAROIS).
4 Ju-87
2 Hs-129
1 Ju188.

Overall the overclaiming rate is around 2.
For example, the Germans lose 79 fighters, the Soviets in claims (170).
There remains the question of how to confuse a Me-109 and a FW-190 ....
In the fighting the Soviets almost always describe 2 Me-109 accompanying groups of FW-190. Is it the Erla canopies of the new G14 who troubles?
If anyone has detailed German reports, we can confront them with the Soviets.

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 25th August 2019 at 21:50. Reason: correction
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Old 25th August 2019, 18:56
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

1st victory of the pilots of Normandy for the month of October.

On the 9th of October, Captain Matras shot down at 16h30 (GMT + 3) a Me109 8 km south of Tauragé. The victory is considered probable until the troops on the ground signal the fall of a Me109.

The 1 / JG51 and 3 / JG51 are active on the gradnetz (26726 and 26769), that is the south of Tauragé.

Does anyone have the details of the JG51's losses for October 9, 1944 ?

They have a pilot killed but in Warsaw it seems.

The 18 GvIAP wins the same day these first victories: 8 Fw-190 and 1 Me-109.

Only one plane is lost the La-5 N ° 392IFN2233 near Taraugé at 11:30 (GMT + 3).

As an indication: details of the victories of 18 GvIAP.
Between 15:46 and 16:35 (GMT + 3) 3 FW-190 and 1 Me-109 in Taraugé.
Between 17:40 and 18:40: 1 FW-190 to Taraugé.
At 18.30: 1 FW-190, place unspecified, 1 FW-190 at Ragnit, 1 FW-190 at Chuppinen, 1 FW-190 at Piktupenen.
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Old 28th August 2019, 21:11
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
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Re: 107 Wins for Normandy-Niemen in October 1944: Myth or Reality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtois Laurent View Post
I give you my list certainly incomplete, that luftwaffe specialists (that I am not) will correct.

Hello Laurent! Glad to see that someone else interesting in this topic. I'm also combining data about Air battle in East Prussia in October 1944. Look also for this topic: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=51705


That Air battle was really intense. And looks like losses of luftwaffe were in some cases significant. But a rate of overclaiming of VVS and Normandie was also relevant. There were some reasons for that. For example, in some cases soviet and french fighters have attacked same german planes previously damaged. But even in this case it could return. Hitted german planes dived to the ground and hided into clouds of low fog over the ground. The weather were difficult most of time. In this case there could be 2-3 claimes without a real victory.

In that air battle Normandie was the strongest (more then 50 pilots) and the main regiment wich got an order of combat air patrols and hunting. So it isn't strange that it claimed most of the victories. At least shooting of Trenkel and death of Huffner looks like their work. But there is also possibillity that also a soviet fighters did it.

For the full picture it is need to be complete information about german damaged aircraft. But it is obviously incomplete because information about totally lost aircraft counts much more numbers than damaged. And actually there is lack information about events from german site to precise correct dates and time in german reports. For example almost unclear details and time of Huffner's death.


Thank you for a nice map also.
Some corrections to your list:

1. In October have took apart in battle in East Prussia on Fw 190 also Stabstaffel/JG51, II., III./SG4 and probably Stab./SG3

2. 10 / SG1 according to the ww2.dk in october was 8 Ju 87, you missed with the September
3. IV./SG9 - do you mean Stab IV./SG9? Looks like it had only 6 Hs 129
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