X and Y-Verfahren

[CJE]

Hello,

When did pathfinder operations with X or Y-Verfahren stop?

Thanks in advance.

Chris

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello Chris

The easiest answer: soon after the British were able to 'bend' the beams by the end of 1940 (I must check Most Secret War of prof. R.V. Jones and some other publications to be more precise). I faintly remember that parts of KG 26 were involved in using the X-Verfahren.

The Y-Verfahren was not abandoned, this technique was used later to plot the position of (own) Luftwaffe-fighters and nightfighters.

Best regards, Marcel

[CJE]

Thanks.

Chris

[Nick Beale]

I'm not sure any of the techniques was completely abandoned. Prisoner interrogations suggest that Knickebein stations were still transmitting during the May 1944 raid on Bristol, for example.

[sirbob]

The use of X and Y-Verfahren was indeed severely blunted over England in early 1941, but their limited use continued until 1944. Each side sought advantage in adjustments, variations, bluff, traps and prediction in a battle of electronic measure and counter-measure similar to Bomber Command's offensive over Germany.
And don't forget the eastern front. I have no knowledge of the electronic air war over there but I do have several photos of He 111's in Russia fitted with X or Y Gerät aerials.

[edNorth]

FYI, Photos show X/Y antennas on He 111s etc. But Ju 88 A-4 (as much used in Britains bombing up to 1944) had their antennas "intregal" (recieving antenna was external under rear fuselage!): the FuBI antenna, only having special amplifiier to they Lorenz apparatus internally.
Not that is specificly belongs here, just curiously, I discovered by resarching "mysterious" antenna on a very famous bird. Period is spring 1943, so was USAAF also using beams
http://scout.com/military/warrior/Ar...elle-101458766

-Ed

[Brian Bines]

According to an RAF report for February 1944 'Benito' (Y) had been transmitted during the recent London raids but no Luftwaffe aircraft were found to carry the equipment to operate with these beams . The operation of these beams were not normal as the communication needed for ranging and bomb dropping were more limited than normal when Benito was actually being used .
From memory I believe another report believed the transmission of these beams were intended to cover the use of more sophisticated systems .
As Nick states interrogation reports for the Steinbock period indicate use of Knickebein by main force aircraft.

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Dear Nick, SirBob, Ed and Brian,

Thanks for your interesting comments! Nice to learn that Knickebein and Benito was used a bit longer than I thought.

Best regards, Marcel

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Marcel Hogenhuis

Dear Nick, SirBob, Ed and Brian,

Thanks for your interesting comments! Nice to learn that Knickebein and Benito was used a bit longer than I thought.

Best regards, Marcel

I wonder if they just used everything they had in the hope that at least one system would still get through the jamming.

[Brian Bines]

No claim to being an expert on this just passing on what I understand from the 'K' reports from aircrew and on Luftwaffe Radio and Radar assessments etc I have, so any corrections welcome. Not certain how badly the Egon system was subject to jamming but reports show the contact between the ground station and the aircraft were. This resulting in instructions being sent by both R/T and W/T , with modification being planned to the FuGe 25 to eliminate the need for such communication . Up until the loss of Z6+HK on the 24-02-44 the use of Hyperbol ( direct use of British Gee equipment and signals ) was utilised, the accuracy over the UK near to the ground stations being potentially more accurate. This being superceded by the Truhe system with German made receivers and ground stations on the same principle.
I believe the Freya pulse of the Egon system had a range of some 250 km. to the aircraft's FuGe 25. was best received at higher altitudes and could only deal with one aircraft every ten minutes. The release of Sky markers would have needed accurate Met info. however on some Steinbock raids wind direction and speed were completely wrong dispersing the markers to add to any jamming problems.