Morato's Air Combat Victories

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,

I have a pretty hard time accepting Morato's 40 air-to-air kills as confirmed during his air combats during the Spanish Civil War. The kills seems to be pretty high. I have no doubt however that Morato was a superb fighter ace with good marksmanship. Seems that he flew thoughout the war on the Spanish Nationalist side from 1936 to 1939 without much leave. All of his kills was when he flew biplanes. I wonder if anyone is reseaching Morato's air victories?

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

[GMichalski]

hi,

for me its also a very interesting question,

regards

[GuerraCivil]

For starters I recommend to look this:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/spain_morato.htm

There is at least one claim on Morato´s list that seems to be inaccurate and it is a Hawker Fury claimed on 20.9.1936. When it comes to others, I can not tell if they were right are wrong.

But even if he overclaimed 2:1, he would still be a top ace of SCW scoring more than any Legion Condor pilot.

I´m quite sure that Morato´s air victories have been studied as he was such a famous pilot and the top ace. I remember to have read that some Spanish aviation historians have checked Morato´s score and found that more than half of it has been accurate. But I can not remember the source.

Republican claims can be doubted also. I have compared some of the claims of well known Republican pilots with loss records of Legion Condor/Aviazione Legionaria and to my disappointment only little could be confirmed.

[GMichalski]

hi,

for beginners it´s a good start,
i find more info and seems accurate over 60% or more but need more
info of different sources, not only of one....

Salas seems the same..

Guerrero nothing good and benjumea i found little
but maybe over 50%-55%

i search for more sources to compare...

regards

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

It is interesting if you befere agree (or set up) about the terms of victory or air claime.
If right remeber the air victory during this air war was then, when enemy plane did not landed on own airfield. The damage and force landing outside such field were very often. Next there were many technical problems due to old and not servisable machines.

So, the Morato's claims are very high but he had fought many times and many times achived some kind of air success, which of course do not means his 100 % destruction of enemy plane or even more then 60 % of making damage (according LW's standards and procedures).
Some of his air victories were less the 60 % of damage, it do not counts as his air victory?

regards,
mw

.

[GuerraCivil]

Air victory claim corresponding to enemy loss is often understood as the plane destroyed or damaged beyond repair - this being a "kill". Also when the enemy plane is forced to land behind "our" lines and can be taken as a trophy, it could be regarded as a air victory. Actually the intact or only slightly damaged captured enemy plane is a bigger bonus than to have it destroyed.

The problem arises with the definition of "kill" - it means destroyed enemy plane (or plane which is so damaged that it is written off by enemy). "Kill" means destroyed enemy plane, no doubt on that. But is the air victory necessarily same thing as the "kill"?

Mike Spick defined in his book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" the air victory as a such situation, in which a pilot in good faith believes to have downed a enemy plane. However this must be confirmed by someone (a fellow pilot or ground observer) to be a "confirmed air victory". The main point is that the air victory claim is made and confirmed in good faith - thus it ends up to the confirmed air victory list of the pilot and will stay there even if the later research shows otherwise. If Morato had 40 confirmed individual air victories accepted officially by the air forces in which he served, they are confirmed official air victories for him and any remark or note does not change that afterwards. If it is found out that Morato had actually 20-25 air victories, it is "unofficial" information for the interest of historians only.

More complications rise when we talk about individual and shared "kills"/air victories. If we count shared air victories to the tally, it will automatically raise the number of air victories of many pilots. Let´s say that 3 fighter pilots together claim a enemy bomber, everyone is credited with one shared - in practice 3 air victories! Quite common practice in some air forces was to credit individual pilots only with shared victories and the unit with "full" air victories.

Nowadays historians recognize that group/shared kills are the richest source of air victory inflation - just see the air victory scores of Soviet, Japanese and Italian air units. In the Winter War vs. Finland Soviet fighter units overclaimed by the ratio of 10:1, Japanese against Soviets in the Nomonhan war about 6:1 and Italians during the Greco-Italian war about 5:1 - in just one air combat Italians claimed to have wiped out the whole Greek Air Force out of sky, but somehow Greeks just kept on flying and harassing Italians!

However one must take in account that there may have been great differences in the accuracy of air victory claims of different units of same air force. The most accurate Soviet fighter unit (49 IAP) in Winter War overclaimed less than 2:1 (16:9) while the least accurate Baltic Fleet Air Force fighter units overclaimed together massive 54:1!

When it comes to Spanish Civil War just see the Spanish wiki crediting to couple of Soviet pilots more than 30 air victories - however scratching a little that score is based mostly in shared "kills" and most likely the score is the total score of air claims of the Republican air units in which these pilots served!

García Morato´s high claim score is partly explained by the fact that he was a Spanish pilot fighting through the whole conflict. German, Italian and Soviet pilots were all only limited time in Spain as they were rotated continually.

Fiat CR 32 was not the cutting edge of aviation technology in latter half of 1930´s, but it was a decent gun platform and quite nimble. And when it was flown by someone who knew all the strengths and weaknesses of plane, it did quite well.

[GMichalski]

hi,

i shared some info i found in Osprey books, Hakans web and other sites:

1 12/08/1936 1 Vildebeest Destroyed Ni-H.52 Antequera
2 18/08/1936 1 Ni-H.52 Destroyed He 51B Mérida? ataca a una patrulla de patrulla de Vildebeest escoltados por un ni-52, ¿¿no losses??
3 18/08/1936 1 Potez 540 Destroyed He 51B Santa Cruz de Mudela Photo of wreck of the bomber in book Alas Rojas sobre España, Miguel Sanchís on page 35, shot down in less than 8 min over Santa Cruz de Mudela/Confirmed by Pazó Montes after escape to nationalist territory
4 02/09/1936 1 Ni-H.52 Destroyed He 51B Talavera Seems overclaim, only loss was nacionalist pilot Fernandez Tudela
5 11/09/1936 morning 1 Ni-H.52 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Talavera area 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio The 1a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio shot down 2 Ni-H.52s flown by French pilots Captain Jean Labitte and Sergeant Abel Guidez, who had enrolled in the Escuadra España from the reserve corps of the Armée de l’Air. Both pilots survived to return to their unit
16/09/1936 1/2 Potez 540 Shared destroyed CR.32 3-51 Navalcarnero area 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio 2º Lafayette "N" Pilot Gumersindo Arean force-landed near Navalcarnero, crew dead except pilot survive, Morato also attacks two Breguets…..
6 16/09/1936 1 Potez 540 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Navalcarnero area 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio same plane that shared by GianLino Baschirotto, claimed like complete claim? Claim another more?
7 20/09/1936 1 Fury Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Santa Olalla 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio The Republican pilots claimed six victories for the loss of two I-15s (Ivan K. Kovtun and Petr A. Purov killed). The Nationalist pilots claimed six victories and three damaged for the loss of one CR.32 and a second force-landed
8 25/09/1936 1 Breguet XIX Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Bargas area 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio Republican side lost 28 aircraft, and Nationalists lost 10 (including 2 Republican and 1 Nationalist aircraft, that deserted)
9 16/10/1936 1 Loire 46 C1 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Mocejon-Madrid area 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio Shot down near Illescas Guiseppe Kirzai, Photo on Ospreys book
10 18/10/1936 1 Breguet XIX Destroyed CR.32 3-51 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio 2 losses in Illescas….Republican side lost 28 aircraft, and Nationalists lost 10 (including 2 Republican and 1 Nationalist aircraft, that deserted)
11 18/10/1936 1 Breguet XIX Destroyed CR.32 3-51 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio 2 losses in Illescas….Republican side lost 28 aircraft, and Nationalists lost 10 (including 2 Republican and 1 Nationalist aircraft, that deserted)
21.10.36 Boeing 281, Loire-46? Probably destroyed CR.32 3-51 between Pinto and Parla Ramón Puparelli Francia (CO of all Republican fighters on the Madrid front) to scramble in the sole Boeing 281, and he fell victim to Nationalist CR.32s between Pinto and Parla. Bailing out successfully, he broke ribs on landing and spent the next few months recovering in hospital in Madrid
12 05/11/1936 1 Potez 540 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Leganés-Madrid 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio force-landed in Republican territory with a dead engine
13 05/11/1936 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Leganés-Madrid 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio *Republican fighters claimed five CR.32 for the loss of two I-15 and several other damaged. Nationalist CR.32s claimed seven fighters and one bomber for the loss of one CR.32.*Leytenant Petr Aleksandrovich Mitrofanov of Escuadrilla Palancar, was shot down over enemy territory in his I-15 and even if he managed to bail out of his burning aircraft he was killed, thus becoming the first Russian pilot killed in Spain. Although the other I-15 Miroshnichenko was a write-off, its pilot survived his forced landing on the tree-lined avenue of Paseo de la Castellana. Several other I-15s returned to their base at Campo Soto, near Algete, with varying degrees of battle damage
14 09/11/1936 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Madrid area 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio 2 losses attacking one plane of Legion Condor, one I-15 fell in Vicalvarado, turn over trying to land and other crashed in flames between Madrid and Barajas
15 13/11/1936 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Paseo de Rosales 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio *Nationalist forces claimed nine I-15s and 1 SB while losing 1 CR.32 and 1 force-landed. Republican forces claimed 6 CR.42 while losing 2 I-15s (Karp Kovtun and Petr A. Purov) and 1 SB (reportedly to AA fire) probably by Salas.*
13/11/1936 1 SB Damaged CR.32 3-51 Getafe-Cuatro Vientos 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio *Nationalist forces claimed nine I-15s and 1 SB while losing 1 CR.32 and 1 force-landed. Republican forces claimed 6 CR.42 while losing 2 I-15s (Karp Kovtun and Petr A. Purov) and 1 SB (reportedly to AA fire).*
13/11/1936 1 SB Damaged CR.32 3-51 Getafe-Cuatro Vientos 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio *Nationalist forces claimed nine I-15s and 1 SB while losing 1 CR.32 and 1 force-landed. Republican forces claimed 6 CR.42 while losing 2 I-15s (Karp Kovtun and Petr A. Purov) and 1 SB (reportedly to AA fire).*
13/11/1936 1 SB Damaged CR.32 3-51 Getafe-Cuatro Vientos 2a*Escuadrilla de Caza del Tercio *Nationalist forces claimed nine I-15s and 1 SB while losing 1 CR.32 and 1 force-landed. Republican forces claimed 6 CR.42 while losing 2 I-15s (Karp Kovtun and Petr A. Purov) and 1 SB (reportedly to AA fire).*
1937
16 03/01/1937 1 SB Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Córdoba area Patrulla Azul 2 SBs from the 3a/12 shot down (one of these with number 31 "white"), first pilot was Ananías Sanjuan Alonso only survivor in crashlanding, Cap Alvarez Rueda and gunner Gonzalez Martos were killed (crew Celso gonzalez and gunner Julian Fuentes Alonso???)
17 03/01/1937 1 SB Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Córdoba area Patrulla Azul 2 SBs from the 3a/12 shot down (one of these with number 31 "white"), second pilot was Nikolay Batov (alias Ivanov), observer 1Lt. Vladimir Zotov (or Manuel Alvarez Rueda??) and gunner Octaviano Muñoz Hernandez
18 18/02/1937 morning 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Jarama Front, over Villaconejos Patrulla Azul claimed 4 I-15 + 5 Probables, Republicans lost 6 aircraft include I-15 Ivan Kopets WIA of Escuadrilla José by Presel and I-15 Harold Evans Dahl from Escuadrilla Lacalle both bail out by Presel or Ruzzin. Another I-15 from Escuadrilla Lacalle was downed by Degli Incerti or Fiacchino Benjamin, David Leider (American) perished trying a forced landing. Lt. Zamashanskiy with I-16 was also killed trying to crash-land after shot up by Montegnacco or Degli Incerti. Three losses from Escuadrilla La Calle, two from Escuadrilla José and one from Escuadrilla Kolesnikov. Leytenant Ugrovatov from Escuadrilla Jose parachuted to safety over friendly territory from his stricken I-15 while Leytenant Filip Zamashanskiy, patrol leader of the I-16-equipped Escuadrilla Kolesnikov, was killed trying to crash-land his fighter after it had been shot up. Also Allison’s I-15 gave a jerk, then it executed a perfect Immelmann and headed back to base but he was forced to make an emergency landing. Both Allison and Dahl rejoined their unit the next day
18/02/1937 morning 1 I-15 Probably destroyed CR.32 3-51 Jarama Front, over Villaconejos Patrulla Azul claimed 4 I-15 + 5 Probables, Republicans lost 6 aircraft include I-15 Ivan Kopets WIA of Escuadrilla José by Presel and I-15 Harold Evans Dahl from Escuadrilla Lacalle both bail out by Presel or Ruzzin. Another I-15 from Escuadrilla Lacalle was downed by Degli Incerti or Fiacchino Benjamin, David Leider (American) perished trying a forced landing. Lt. Zamashanskiy with I-16 was also killed trying to crash-land after shot up by Montegnacco or Degli Incerti. Three losses from Escuadrilla La Calle, two from Escuadrilla José and one from Escuadrilla Kolesnikov. Leytenant Ugrovatov from Escuadrilla Jose parachuted to safety over friendly territory from his stricken I-15 while Leytenant Filip Zamashanskiy, patrol leader of the I-16-equipped Escuadrilla Kolesnikov, was killed trying to crash-land his fighter after it had been shot up. Also Allison’s I-15 gave a jerk, then it executed a perfect Immelmann and headed back to base but he was forced to make an emergency landing. Both Allison and Dahl rejoined their unit the next day
19 04/06/1937 1 I-16 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 2-G-3
20 12/06/1937 1 R-5 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 ORHU, Huesca 2-G-3 1 Papagayo lost this day (R-5) for two claims the other was by M. Guerrero
21 14/06/1937 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 2-G-3 "Republican losses two I-15 and two I-16. Petr Burov and Anton Moseyko were both killed when their I-16s suffered critical wing failures during flight.
At the time of his death, Moseyko had claimed one victory"
22 14/07/1937 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Majadahonda, Hoyo de Pinares 2-G-3 Claimed 2 RZ, 2 were shot down. One of the victims was Tte. Eduardo Verduzco Robles 50 Escuadrilla independiente de Natashas "la Barcelona" KIA
23 14/07/1937 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Majadahonda, Hoyo de Pinares 2-G-3 Claimed 2 RZ, 2 were shot down. One of the victims was Tte. Eduardo Verduzco Robles 50 Escuadrilla independiente de Natashas "la Barcelona" KIA
24 15/07/1937 1 I-16 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Brunete 2-G-3 2 I-15 lost and one I-16 (in other source 2 I-16 shot down), republicans claimed 7 between CR-32 and He-51
25 15/07/1937 1 I-16 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Brunete 2-G-3 2 I-15 lost and one I-16 (in other source 2 I-16 shot down), republicans claimed 7 between CR-32 and He-51
26 18/07/1937 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Brunete area 2-G-3 It seems that 6 R-Zs and 3 fighters are verified with Republican records.*in other source 2 losses ¿?
27 02/09/1937 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Belchite area 2-G-3 Not confirmed with Government records.
28 04/12/1937 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51
1938
29 12/03/1938 afternoon 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Híjar att. 2-G-3 2-G-3 claimed 7 I-15s, 1 probable and 1 damaged and 1 SB destroyed without losses. 2 I-15 shot down CA-034 Ramon Llorente & Aradin CA-057, 2 landed and recovered ca-040 Mora , ca-018 Piner also lost I-16 Antonio Arias bail out
30 12/03/1938 afternoon 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Híjar att. 2-G-3 2-G-3 claimed 7 I-15s, 1 probable and 1 damaged and 1 SB destroyed without losses. 2 I-15 shot down CA-034 Ramon Llorente & Aradin CA-057, 2 landed and recovered ca-040 Mora , ca-018 Piner also lost I-16 Antonio Arias bail out
31 25/06/1938 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 near La Puebla de Valverde 3-G-3 3a Escuadrilla Grupo 30 seems 2 losses 2 by Morato shared with AA
32 25/06/1938 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 near La Puebla de Valverde 3-G-3 3a Escuadrilla Grupo 30 seems 2 losses 2 by Morato shared with AA
33 01/08/1938 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 near Fayón 3-G-3 7 claims Morato, O'Connor,Joaquin Velasco, Benjumea, Sagastizabal, Antonio Manrique (2), no info of losses
34 14/08/1938 1 I-16 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 Gandesa area 3-G-3 Claimed in combat with I-16 from 1a, 3a*and 4a*Escuadrillas who lost at least one I-16 (i-16, 4ª esc. Manuel Fernandez Morales) and got three more damaged while claiming 3 CR.32s and 1 He 111. 2-G-3 claimed three I-16s and 3-G-3 claimed two more while losing one CR.32 and getting 3 more damaged.
35 ??/09-10/38 1 I-16 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 3-G-3
36 22/09/1938 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 3-G-3 "Big Overclaim: G-3 claim 24 vict!! Combat against 2ª,3ª,4ª and 6ª escorting I-15 and R-Zs also enter in the combat Legion Condor and Escuadrilla Frecce,
Bayo . 4 , Vazquez Sagastizabal 2, Salvador 2, Simon 2, Henricourt 2, Ibarreche 2, Salas 1, Aristides 1, Cesteros 1, Morato 2, O'connor 1, Mendizabal 1, Larios 1 + 2 de grupo
1 I-16 shot down of the 6ª Huerta bail out, 2 I-16 damaged and recovered, Jose Pallares and Angel Sanz ""Vallecas"" return with wounds, also lost this day I-15 Chato CA-190 Juan José Armario forced to land in Reus"
03/10/1938 I-16 Probably destroyed? CR.32 3-51 Ebro area? 3-G-3 I-16 Type 10 from 3a*Escuadrilla Alvaro Pitarch WIA plane recovered, but not credit to him ¿? Who? ¿¿Benjumea??
37 24/12/1938 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 20km N Balaguer 3-G-3 Of the 9 Natashas, 3 returned to their own side's airfields, (2 to La Garriga and 1 to Vic). Six were shot down, of which 3 were lost, while the remainder managed to land with varying fortune inside their own lines. Overall the Natasha squadron suffered 3 dead, 8 wounded and 2 taken prisoner
38 24/12/1938 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 20km N Balaguer 3-G-3 Of the 9 Natashas, 3 returned to their own side's airfields, (2 to La Garriga and 1 to Vic). Six were shot down, of which 3 were lost, while the remainder managed to land with varying fortune inside their own lines. Overall the Natasha squadron suffered 3 dead, 8 wounded and 2 taken prisoner
39 24/12/1938 1 R-Z Destroyed CR.32 3-51 20km N Balaguer 3-G-3 Of the 9 Natashas, 3 returned to their own side's airfields, (2 to La Garriga and 1 to Vic). Six were shot down, of which 3 were lost, while the remainder managed to land with varying fortune inside their own lines. Overall the Natasha squadron suffered 3 dead, 8 wounded and 2 taken prisoner
1939
40 19/01/1939 midday 1 I-15 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 near Igualada 3-G-3 I-15 from 4a*Escuadrilla shot down



enjoy,
regards

[GMichalski]

i update my info on this day:

14.7.37 2-G-3 García Morato y Castaño, Joaquín R-Z Republican Spanish 22th/40 Majadahonda, Hoyo de Pinares Claimed 5 RZ, but lost 3 planes in Hoyo de Pinares. One of the victims was Tte. Eduardo Verduzco Robles 50 Escuadrilla independiente de Natashas "la Barcelona" KIA in combat in Hoyo de Pinares

14.7.37 2-G-3 García Morato y Castaño, Joaquín R-Z Republican Spanish 23th/40 Majadahonda, Hoyo de Pinares Claimed 5 RZ, but lost 3 planes in Hoyo de Pinares. One of the victims was Tte. Eduardo Verduzco Robles 50 Escuadrilla independiente de Natashas "la Barcelona" KIA in combat in Hoyo de Pinares

so 5 claims and 3 losses

regards

[GuerraCivil]

It is quite easy to see that García Morato participated in quite a few air combats, in which Nationalist side overclaimed - sometimes very highly. Overclaims of 3:1 or more were common in air combat reports of both sides of Spanish Civil War.

But when it comes to individual overclaiming, it is very difficult to tell which pilots overclaimed in some particular combats. Lets say that García Morato participates and makes a claim in air combat in which Nationalists claimed 5 enemy planes, when actual enemy losses are 2. How can we tell that García Morato´s claim is one of two "legitimate" claims or one of three "overclaims"? We can of course try to study as carefully the combat reports of both sides of that air combat to find out the truth, but I`m afraid that even that would not give us the absolute truth. One should add that at operational pilot and unit level overclaiming was often done with good faith and without propagandistic aims.

I have not yet gone enough carefully the list of all García Morato´s claims to find out in which cases his claims are "undisputed" matching perfectly with known enemy records and there being no "competing" claims of other Nationalist pilots.

However my guess is that "undisputed" air victory claims after the most very careful research are less than those which are more or less involved with some overclaiming at unit level (Morato having made claims in air combats in which it can be showed that Nationalists overclaimed to lesser or bigger scale). And then there are usual cases when enemy plane has been damaged and has been smoking but nevertheless made it back to home or succesfull force-landing behind own lines.

And this most probably goes for almost all other aces of both sides of Spanish Civil War. At best we can try to "eliminate" overclaiming at operational unit level but to do that with all individual pilots is practically impossible.

[GMichalski]

Hi,

i agree, almost imposible to found the real victor..

for example in this claim:

20 12/06/1937 1 R-5 Destroyed CR.32 3-51 ORHU, Huesca 2-G-3 1 Papagayo lost this day (R-5) for two claims the other was by M. Guerrero

one lost two claims, by Morato, by Guerrero or both shared?


regards