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  #31  
Old 13th August 2019, 17:38
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
Not necessarily. My company ships books and the invoice number does not reflect the actual number of books in stock.
Did you notice, I said "POSSIBLY"?

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  #32  
Old 14th August 2019, 10:15
martinpegg martinpegg is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

In reply to Dens Bernád’s claim that a few blocks of W.Nr. are missing from the table in my revised edition of Hs 129 Panzerjäger and that he can prove his statement, I suggest that if he wishes to be taken seriously he should do so and show us the evidence he claims to have.
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  #33  
Old 21st August 2019, 12:29
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

In response to Dénes's comment about the lack of Stammkennzeichen and production dates in Martin Pegg’s new edition of Hs 129 Panzerjäger, I have been working in collaboration with the author and I'm posting here a partial and tentative reconstruction of the Stammkz. blocks for the Hs 129.

On the first tab are spans for the Werk-Nummern assigned to individual Stammkz. sequences (as 'known') as well as deduced delivery dates for each of the reconstructed W.Nr. blocks. Where there is now better information available I've corrected some of the Stammkz. assignments published previously, and eliminated the odd inconsistency.

Even with the corrections and additions from Martin's Edition 2 and incorporating the other enhancements, what is very clear is that there are still large gaps in the Hs 129 Stammkz./W.Nr. linkages. In short, we remain quite a way from having anything approaching a full picture.

That said, and brought out clearly in the attached reconstruction, there are only around 25 W.Nr. spans still to be linked to a Stammkz. sequence (or an individual Stammkz. in the case of the C-1). On the other hand, we already have identifications for parts of 23 of these Stammkz. spans and a partial for one more Stammkz. (second letter missing). Those are as listed on the second tab.

Taking into account that a handful of Stammkz. sequences may have run across from the end of W.Nr. one block into the start of another we probably already have at least one Stammkz. assignment from every one of the Hs 129 Stammkz. sequences still to be linked to W.Nrn..

To take this reconstruction to the next step, I would suggest that dates need to be placed alongside all of the known Hs 129 Stammkz that are still without any W.Nr.. Especially valuable are the logbooks of factory test and acceptance pilots. It's a self-evident point, but if in a continuous period the Stammkz Sequences XX+X_, YY+Y_ & ZZ+Z_ appear in that order in the Flugbuch and there is an independent identification of a W.Nr. for one of the aircraft in the YY+Y_ sequence, then using the reconstructed W.Nr. blocks there is a fighting chance that a decent stab can be made at reconstructing the W.Nr. assignments for all three of these Stammkz. sequences.

The broad choices for taking this forward then are:
  • continue crying for the moon, hoping that in the Henschel archives someone will one day find the monthly reports to Adlershof from HFW Johannisthal listing by W.Nr., Stammkz. and sub-type each series production Hs 129 delivered (Flugkapitän Materna told me that for HFW's Schönefeld production these reports exist for the whole of their Ju 88 output excepting only the first 100 examples, but he said nothing about Johannisthal);
  • work together, pool and share dated data from primary sources and see if over a period it is possible to create a much improved reconstruction of Hs 129 Stammkz. allocations that can be posted here and published wherever by whoever so chooses.

So, if any reader of this post is able and willing to provide additional Stammkz. data from Flugbücher, documents or any other primary source material that would help fill out this reconstruction, then please contact me at INM.at.RLM@gmail.com or post it here.

Last edited by INM@RLM; 21st August 2019 at 12:30. Reason: Attachmnet did not load
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  #34  
Old 24th August 2019, 15:30
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

I was hesitating for long time in deciding if I should answer Marin Pegg's cocky post of 14 August, where he publicly questioned my credibility, or simply ignore it. Finally, I decided to answer it, for the sake of making progress towards a more complete Hs 129 production list. Therefore, I post a few examples of Werknummern that are not in the production list published on page 42. There are more, which will be included in a further book.
I believe that after publishing more than 25 books, mostly related to aviation, when I write something and I expressly mention that I can prove it, I certainly don't need to come with extra proofs to defend my credibility.
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  #35  
Old 25th August 2019, 14:12
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

The book has approximately 300 pages. How many pages are devoted to the design, engineering and production and how many to service deployment?
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  #36  
Old 26th August 2019, 00:05
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

Can I also ask how much new details there is in the book compared to what has been published before?

I have the old Classic book of course and also three by Dénes.

Cheers
Stig
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  #37  
Old 26th August 2019, 23:58
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

This is a response volunteered to address the post of 24th August 2019 from Dénes Bernád.

Thank you for sharing those snippets, Dénes. Forgive me please if I make a few observations.

Item #1: W.Nr. 140448
I am left scratching my head as to how you can think that W.Nr. 140448 might indicate a new Hs 129 W.Nr. block when the blocks from W.Nr. 0151 to 0450 have long been definitively documented. This is W.Nr. 0448. It is understandable that Rumanian Air Force personnel outside a tiny few would not have understood the evolution of RLM Werk-Nummern presentations assigned to the Hs 129 and could easily have come to think that all Hs 129 W.Nrn. had a 14 stuck at the front. After all, the German W.Nrn. were not widely used or referred to in the Rumanian Air Force. (See on please to the Afterword at the foot of this post.)

Item #2: W.Nr. 142011
Sits immediately after the reconstructed block of 10: W.Nr. 142001 to 142010. Known within this block are 2001/2/3/4 & 6 (=5 so 50%). You also have a W.Nr. 142000 but that is not visible on the aircraft with tail number 113 where this attribution appears in the photo caption. 142011 like 142000 is not impossible but in the absence of any other W.Nr. identifications between 2006 and 2011 neither is it outright convincing either. One would also need to assess the quality of the source. [It also has to be said of W.Nr. 142000 that it’s a very early (1943 surely?) Esc. 41 tail number to be borne by an Hs 129 with such a high (c.July 1944) W.Nr. After all tail number 115 was reported damaged on 19-Aug-43 and it was likely these Eskadrila-specific tail numbers were assigned sequentially.]

Item #3: W.Nr. 141886
Sits immediately after the reconstructed block of 60: W.Nr. 141821 to 141880. 13 identities (so 38% of the 60) are known from this block starting at W.Nr. 141828 and ending with W.Nr. 141878/9/80. At this late stage of the war, it is possible the block began at W.Nr. 141828 and ended at 141887 (or W.Nr. 141827 to 141886). But it's also possible there is a typo in this W.Nr. number somewhere. Neither possibility would make it evidence of a new block. (And before changing any block boundaries, I think I'd want see another identification in the span W.Nr. 141881 to 141885, whilst the range W.Nr. 141821 to 141826 still remained empty.) As always, in the absence of any explicit documentation for the specific W.Nr. block, and without any guidance from having a known final Stammkz. letter, it's a best-fit-to-the-data reconstruction and not all of the data always fits in neatly. In short, there is always a handful of anomalies in any data set that are most likely pure errors of one sort or another.

Item #4: W.Nr. 141994
This sits in the gap of ten between W.Nr. 141961 to 141990 (30) and W.Nr. 142001 to 142010 (10), the latter already referred to above in Item #2. Also not impossible but there are 13 identities known in the lower-numbered block spanning 141962 to 141989 (so 43% of the 30). It's also possible there is a typo in this W.Nr. number, maybe it was W.Nr. 141984 (currently no record)? At most this identification of W.Nr. 141994 might link these two blocks into a single block of 50 but that still doesn’t make it into a new block.

Summary
So Item #1 fails the most basic test. However, taking Item’s #2 to #4 together, there could be some doubt around the precise borders of some of the later blocks. The maximum total area of uncertainty though is at most about 21 W.Nr. (141881 to 141886, 141991 to 142000, and possibly 142011 to 142015). What there is not in your offerings is any evidence of any missing W.Nr. blocks.
An objective reader would probably judge that you have yet to prove your contention that “I can firmly state that Martin Pegg has missed a few production blocks”. Perhaps there is something more substantial that you could offer in support of your claim?

Afterword
There are error rates in all sets of records. However, there is a particular and fundamental problem with placing reliance on any Hs 129 Werk-Nummern drawn from Rumanian records. The overwhelming photographic evidence is that as soon as Rumanian Air Force camouflage and markings were painted on an Hs 129, the W.Nr. on the tail was painted over and the Rumanian Air Force tail number (TNr) became the sole remaining identification marking carried by the aircraft. [I can find only a few Rumanian-marked Hs 129s still bearing a W.Nr. - the page references in the following listing are to Martin Pegg's Edition 2 since that is all I currently have immediately to hand: 1. W.Nr. unreadable but 4 digits/TNr 321a? (background p.142tp); 2. W.Nr 140742/TNr 115 (p.143mid); 3. W.Nr 141268/TNr 228 (p.144tp); 4. W.Nr. 140719/TNr 215 (p.149tp); 5. W.Nr. 0152/TNr 233 (pp.204tp & 205paintg). That’s not many out of the scores supplied.]

Hence there is a basic contradiction here as to how much accuracy and attention would have been paid to a W.Nr. identity that the Rumanian Air Force had decided was of no importance, and which could now only be found by going to the aircraft’s Lebenslaufakte or inspecting the manufacturer’s plate on the aircraft.

For examples of the Hs 129 allocated to Rumania by the Luftwaffe, the only Rumanians that would have been interested professionally in accurately tracking the RLM-assigned W.Nr. of a Rumanian Hs 129 airframe would have been the handful of staff involved with indenting for additional Hs 129s to be supplied by the Germans and supporting such requests with the W.Nr. identities of the Rumanian Hs 129s written off or sent back damaged. All of that could be simply accomplished by carefully keeping a single master list cross-referenced between the always-unique assignment of a Rumanian tail number and each individual Hs 129 RLM W.Nr.

These extracts in your post do not appear to come from such a listing. Indeed there is no way of telling what sort of a listing they actually do come from, and you have not enlightened us on this aspect. In fact you have edited your examples to the extent that they are now meaningless as regards their context.

To expand this point a little, if these W.Nr. are extracted from a Rumanian report of the ex-Luftwaffe Hs 129s abandoned in Rumania after the surrender to the Soviets, then many of those could have been wrecked in varying degrees, some severely. As is not infrequently evidenced in the RAF's Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports, in such cases picking out the W.Nr. with complete accuracy was not always feasible, and sometimes educated guesses were made of what a particular digit might be in the case of a partly destroyed or partly obscured W.Nr..

Given the clear evidence for how little significance the RLM W.Nr. had in Rumanian records, my suggestion is that any evidence from this source needs to be demonstrably shown to be comparable in quality and credibility to the standards of Luftwaffe loss records.

Last edited by INM@RLM; 27th August 2019 at 08:44. Reason: typos
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  #38  
Old 27th August 2019, 01:23
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

Does this book answer these questions: stalling speeds power on/off and clean/landing condition; accelerated stall and behavior in stall under aforementioned conditions?
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  #39  
Old 27th August 2019, 11:45
Paul Frawley Paul Frawley is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

My copy arrived in New Zealand last week. Fantastic work - many thanks to Martin Pegg and Chandos publications. As for those bludgers who have posted on this thread demanding every detail of the book - man up and get a copy before they all disappear into the homes of genuine aviation enthusiasts.
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  #40  
Old 27th August 2019, 17:34
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: [New Edition]Henschel Hs 129 Panzerjäger by Martin Pegg

INM@RLM. It's curious to me that you attempt to explain the discrepancies of the proofs I displayed upon Martin Pegg's summon (I explicitly not simply wrote here these numbers, but presented snippets of original documents), and the production list included in his book by suggesting the technical clerk occasionally added some numbers in front of the W.Nr. (strangely enough exactly fitting a known form of six-digit W.Nr.), or made repeated typos. But the obvious, simple explanation that these are indeed new W.Nr.’s, which prove the existence of new production batches missed in the table on page 42, evades you.
Obviously, you're not aware of the extent I've researched this topic and my familiarity with the reliability of original documents. These Werknummern I presented earlier are repeated in other documents as well. So, the possibility of typos and extra numbers added by error should be discarded.
I understand you attempt to defend the author and his book (you wrote earlier: "I have been working in collaboration with the author"). But this should not be a hindering factor in accepting evidence pointing to new data, thus assisting in reconstructing a more complete production table, as I suggested earlier.
As I wrote, there are more Werknummern that do not fit the aforementioned production table.
I plan to write, in the upcoming decade, yet another book about this topic (a final one for me), where I will present a more complete (but, by its nature, still incomplete) production table, with extra references to particular cases.
In the meantime, I encourage researches – yourself included - to continue working on this fascinating topic with open mind, unearth more information, so the most comprehensive book about the Hs 129 can be, one day, published.
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