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  #1  
Old 29th August 2006, 13:21
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Hohentwiel Hohentwiel is offline
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Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Hello,

when were the codes of Bf 109 changed?
The codes were changed e.g. from ()6-12 to 6()12.
The () are standing for the round disc.
Do you have some concrete informations?

Thanks to all,
Sven.
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  #2  
Old 29th August 2006, 15:32
Modeldad Modeldad is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Sorry no "hard documentation", but it appears during July 1937 and later.

It appears that the group of 109s arriving in July '37 (beginning with 6-17) had the codes on each side of the black disc. When the early ones with code behind the balck disc were repainted is not clear. For example a picture of 6-15 after capture by the Republicans in December 1937 shows full codes behind the disc.

But an undated picture of 6-10 with 14 kills on the fin, has the code changed from behind to both sides of the disc.

My reference is Laurerau's Condor from Hikoki.
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  #3  
Old 29th August 2006, 16:12
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Hohentwiel Hohentwiel is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Thank you very much.
So it could be that the early Bf 109 B flew in the beginning of 1938
with old codes? The painting and marking of 6-10 was completely changed.
But it would be interesting when this happend. The 6-10 survived the
Spanish civil war as I know.
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  #4  
Old 29th August 2006, 18:42
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

A bit out of thread, but where could we find the losses concerning the spanish campaign ???

Remi
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  #5  
Old 29th August 2006, 21:32
Many Souffan Many Souffan is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Hello.

Before to answer to your question, I would like to give a chronology of the story of the 109
In Spain.

The four first 109 came in Spain for tests in December 36.At the end of February, March and April 37came 12 new 109 . these 16 109 had the old code with the two numbers (6 for identification of 109 and the personal code of the aircraft) after the black disc.

All these 16 109 had the particularity to have the big old wooden two-blades. I don’t remember if it was a British made or American made, but I Believe the English De Havilland

It was only in April 37 that these 109 entered in Campaign with the 2 J/88. The first air victory of a 109 was the 6 April 1937 by at this time the Oblt Günther Lützow and probably on the .6-5.

During May to July 37 came the second batch 22 109 B1and B2 which were used by the 1 J/88 under the command of Oblt Harro Harder.

It was during these moments that the codes changed and the first one to wear the new code was the 6.17 that is the answer.

About the second question, all the last survivors of the first 16 109 entered in workshop to be to transform in the standard with engine of B2 , the 2-blades VDM and with the new codes.

2 examples: the 6.6 was tested (Feb/March 37) by Lt Urban Schlaffer. At the 19th march when Oblt Lützow took the command officially of the 2.J/88, the 6.6 was the personal mount of Fw Herbert Ihlefeld. The plane has some problem and his pilot after a long period will have a new personal mount the 6.16 . The 6.6 after his transformation and his new code will become the personal mount at the 3.J/88 of Lt Franz Jaenisch one of the 2 wingmen of Werner Moelders. The plane will be written off the 25/07/38 after a bad take off.

The second example is the 6.7, it was tested by Lt Rolf Pingel. At the 2.J/88, it was the personal mount of Fw Norbert Flegel. When the plane came back after his transformation it will become the mount of Werner Moelders the new CO of the 3./J88. As the 6.6, the 6.7 finished their life in the Spanish Air Force, even for some a log time after the WWII.

But the most interesting thing is the 6.10. It was the mount of Peter Boddem, an outstanding and mysterious pilot, the first one of the German pilots to reach 10 victories. He was the wingman of Lützow (6.5) as Ihlefeld (6.6). Because there was not enough planes, the 3 pilots shared the 6.10 and When it came from transformation with the new code he had 15 bars on his fin. Many people thought it was the fin of the Aircraft of Mölders but not it was only the victories won in this plane by these pilots. It was written also on the cowling Aldertum, you can translate approx by antiquity or oldy, at this time it was the oldest 109 of the Legion Condor. When the 6.10 began a new life in the Spanish Air force, it will be also one the oldest 109 The C4-10 ( C for type B2) will finish his time in July 1951.

Bonsoir
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  #6  
Old 29th August 2006, 22:11
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Hohentwiel Hohentwiel is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Bonjour,

thank you very much for your detailed informations!
That helps a lot!

Greetings to you and all others who read this thread,
Sven.
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  #7  
Old 30th August 2006, 14:19
kormoran kormoran is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Hello all,

you wrote that the 6.6 was the personal a/c of Herbert Ihlefeld.
Then he used the 6.16. Did he lost this plane too because he flew
with the 6.10? Do you have a date? What was the first a/c of
Peter Boddem? Any sources?

Are there any informations which victories were documented
at the fin of the 6-10? All 5 of Lützow? Who's else?
At last what was the originally painting of the first Bf 109 B?
Was it grey? And was this camouflage changed to green
concurrently with the new codes?

Before I forget, if the 6.6 and 6.7 both finished their life in the
Spanish airforce wasn't they older than the 6.10?

Thank you very much, maybe you can help here too.

Regards,
Günter.
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  #8  
Old 30th August 2006, 15:51
lritger lritger is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Just a couple of corrections to Many's helpful post:

- There was never a "Bf 109B-2"... no period documentation refers to any variant except the B-1.
- The wooden props were produced by Schwarz (sp?), and were used because the variable pitch props were not ready in time. Photos of Polenz' captured 6-15 show that the instrument panel was set up to have the pitch change mechanism, but it was of course not fitted as the aircraft still carried the wooden prop when captured.
- The first batch of aircraft to arrive were Bf 109As... they *may* have been coded as high as 6-18, there is still some confusion on the 6-17 and 6-18. (If we could find delivery confirmations in Spanish archives, that would be fantastic...)
- Presuming 6-17 and 6-18 were A models, there were 26 B-1s delivered to Spain, coded 6-19 through 6-45; five C's, from 6-46 to 6-50; and 35 D-1s, coded 6-51 through 6-86.


Lastly, this is somewhat tenuous, but it appears that the only 109s to carry the early insignia [O 6-##] were Bf 109As... this is still just a theory, but it seems to fit. Of course, if someone has info from the Spanish archives which contradicts and corrects the above, I would be very glad to hear it... there's still an awful lot of "grey areas" with the Spanish 109s!

Cheers,

Lynn

(Edit @ Kormoran: All of the Bf 109B-1s were originally delivered in a standard Luftwaffe 70/71/65 scheme, and later repainted in 63/65, although I cannot establish when this happened... all of the Cs and Ds appear to have entered service in 63/65. That scheme was applied over the factory splinter scheme [ref photo of 6-74 in Laureau's book with the forward fin fairing off].)
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  #9  
Old 30th August 2006, 18:57
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

Hello Lynn,
You say in your book that the early spanish Bertas are actually Antons. I think this statement could be somewhat risky without documental proof. It is said that Antons were built with the V2 as a model and prototypes from V3 backwards are completelly different to Bertas.
By the way, in spanish archives there are nothing...
Cheers
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  #10  
Old 30th August 2006, 19:03
olefebvre olefebvre is offline
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Re: Markings + codes of Bf 109 + Legion Condor

AFAIK there were just a couple of Antons delivered to the Condor legion.
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