Shot down hurricane 16th may 1940

[Gordon2990]

Hi Guys hope you can help
I am looking for an unknown grave for a pilot that was shot down over Hamme Mille belguim may 16th 1940 he was allegedly shot down by a bf110
Can you possibly help me find the German records of this bf110
This particular British pilot was awarded the DFC for his action over the river forth Scotland on the 16th of October 1939 he was shot down a year later and his aircraft or body was never found, the Scottish Military Musuem would like to try and find him to arrange to bring him home if possible
His pilot record book was removed from his burning Hurricane and returned to Scotland by a Sgt Willi Rothenburg but no mention of where the pilot was in the letter can any of you help please.
Thank you in anticipation
Gordon 2990

[Chris Goss]

Are you talking about Sqn Ldr P Gifford of 3 Sqn missing on 16 May 40 who shot down a He 111 on 28 Oct 39 with 603 Sqn?

[Gordon2990]

Hi Chris
Yes I am do you know anything

[Chris Goss]

90188 Patrick Gifford was apparently shot down by Bf 110s of 1./ZG 1 near Wavre at 1815 hrs in Hurricane P2825. He is still listed as missing but maybe someone else on this board might like to confirm that. 1./ZG 1 suffered one Bf 110 damaged NW of Brussels with its pilot wounded and another crashed NW of Brussels with two crew killed. They were possible victims of 87 Sqn

[Luc Vervoort]

Hi,
The following details can be found in the excellent “ Twelve days in May “ by Brian Cull and Bruce Lander with Heinrich Weiss (published by Grubb Street in 1995) on page 169 and 170 :
Quote
The Bf110C (2N+HH of 1/ZG1) crashed near Walem, one mile north of Mechelen, with the deaths of Lt Heinrich Brucksch and his gunner, Gfr Heinz-Werner Roth. However, Hptm Adolf Galland of Stab/JG27 reported downing a Hurricane one mile south of Lille at 1830, but since Sgt Wilkinson reported that he had seen the Bf110 shoot down Sqdn Ldr Gifford’s Hurricane, it would seem that the latter had fallen to the Bf110 crew and that Galland had attacked Wilkinson’s Hurricane.
Unquote


The RAF Casualty pack AIR81/476 doesn’t mention anything about an attack by a Bf110. The file includes the following information supplied by the Squadron Leader of 3 Squadron (on 17 July 1940) :
Quote
..and have to inform you that Squadron Leader Gifford was last seen in combat with a Heinkel. He had fired several bursts into the enemy aircraft and followed it down over an enemy ammunition column. F/Lt. Wilkinson who followed Squadron Leader Gifford down, and eventuatlly got the Heinkel, reports that ground fire was very strong at the height at which he encountered the enemy aircraft. On seeing the enemy aircraft crash he immediately got out of the zone of fire. F/Lt. Wilkinson did not see Squadron Leader Gifford again and fully expected that he had returned to Base. No one actually saw Squadorn Leader Gifford brought down by Anti-aircraft fire or crash. He was reported missing on the 16th May, 1940, whilst on patrol in the vicinity of Hamme Mille.
Unquote


Best regards


Luc

[Gordon2990]

Thanks Guys
All the above information i have thanks again.
But i am interested in trying to find out what happened after the event
And wondering if there would possibly be anyone out there can help me find that information
IE what happened to his plane?
what happened to his body?
thanks Gordon 2990

[Chris Goss]

So nothing has come to light since 1940 so chances of finding and recovering him are slim without any more evidence

[Gordon2990]

HI Luc Thank you for that
According to Adolf Gallands pilot record book which Wing Commander Bill Neish (retired) has a copy, Adolf he was not flying that day

Yes thank Chris
This is what i am finding so little information but i will keep looking
Thanks Gordon 2990

[Luc Vervoort]

Hi Gordon2990,


There was an ‘unknown’ P/O. buried in the Rosieres churchyard, with as date May 1940 and another one in Gembloux,date mentioned 11 May 1940.



Was there an unknown airman buried at Hamme-Mille ? Is a copy of the letter by Sgt.Willi Rothenburg available ?



Many thanks in advance and best regards


Luc

[Geoff Rayner]

Hi Gordon2990,
A photo of P2825's port wing exists. Damage to the wing would be consistent with a forced landing followed by a fire, rather than a vertical impact with the ground. That would also be consistent with Sgt Willi Rothenburg being able to extract Gifford's logbook. Was Rothenburg a German soldier?
Thus Gifford was not buried at depth in the wreckage of his machine and extricated later, but either remained in the cockpit having not survived the forced landing or was able to leave the scene and died elsewhere while 'on the run'.