K.G.V Nightfighter combat losses 23/24 August 1943

[Matheson]

Thank you Brian for that. It sent me back to look at http://aufhimmelzuhause.com/id101.htm and that account of his mission on 23/24 August.

It would seem that the Lancaster that he shot down landed near Shouldham which is Cassini Grid Square approx G21 and I wondered if the Crash observed by Rad & Lovestad at G81 might have been that and not the ME410. Schmitter's account suggests that they were attacked near East Anglia and struggled to fly back towards their base at Gilze Rijen and not being shot down near Zeebrugge.

If the former were the case there would perhaps be two RAF claims for the same German loss and the fate of Matheson & Bush would once again be unknown.

I suppose at the back of my mind I am trying to determine where their earthly remains might have finished up. The question of a friendly fire option was never disclosed to the two surviving people in 2006/7 for whom it might have been upsetting. Viz Matheson's brother and Bush's widow.

Sometimes there just isn't an answer :-).

Kind regards,

Howard

[Brian Bines]

Howard my only suggestions on this nights actions are , Rad claimed his victory at 02 40 hrs. while the attack on the Lancaster is given as around 03.00 hrs. with the bomber crashing at 03.19 hrs. . Rad claimed his victim either went down on land or at sea (combat report) by Shotley , while the ORB says down in the sea , he also reported one man baling out. Rad's claim may link to the loss of Ltn Helmut Barzel reported as missing while his Bf Uffz Hartmann was initially reported as missing but in GQM amendments dated 19-10-1943 he is shown as dead, body recovered ?
It would seem if Schmitter made the attack on the Lancaster at round 03.00 hrs he is likely to have fallen to S/L Arbon at 03.33 hrs. the other RAF claims being before 03.00 hrs. Schmitter and his Bf baled out but were unable to climb into their dinghies so fired off flares which were spotted by a Flak post at Zeebrugge and they were picked up.
As regards the other Luftwaffe loss Fw Werner Benner is reported as dying at Furnes ( Veurne ) Belgium on the 25th being buried at military cemetery at Lommel , while his Bf Uffz Reimers is missing but later declared dead . I assume this was a crash at sea off the Belgium coast with Benner being rescued or baling out wounded and drifting in over land , either falling to W/C Mack at 23.22hrs or F/L Goodwin at around 02.50hrs . In Mack’s combat report he noted the e/a had four very bright blue exhausts and was relying on its very high speed , Mack closing at around 360 mph. Goodwin was vectored onto an e/a which he followed on radar for 25 mins. Eventually he got a visual identified as a Me 410 approaching searchlights beacons by Dunkirk, the e/a flashed its downward recognition lights and the S/Ls were doused . The E/A was then at 800 feet he attacked and it crashed into the sea in flames.
RAF claims being W/C Mack at 23.22 hrs , W/C Cunningham an Fw 190 at 01.45hrs Uffz Lembach SKG 10 killed, Capt Rad at 02.40 hrs, F/L Goodman at around 02.50 hrs and S/L Arbon at 03.33 hrs . With S/L Matheson’s take off at 02.28hrs any possibility of a friendly fire incident would eliminate Mack and Cunnigham on time and Rad on location . Unfortunately the events of this night will be open to conjecture with only the Arbon claim as Schmitter looking confirmed , S/L Matheson would appear to have been lost in the Channel with no firm evidence of the cause .
The KG 2 history by Ulf Balke indicates V/KG2 were operating from Epinoy this night.

[Matheson]

Very well summarized, thank you Brian.

I see now that Arbon and Ashcroft give the time of attack as 03:33 and Schmitter & Graeber of 15/KG 2 who flew from Epinoy that night and give the time of their crash as 03:37 so that seems very clear cut.

The Rad claim seems wrong somehow. They were under the Sandwich CHL which is further south and west than the Foreness CHL flying at Angels 25 and patrolling a vector of 110 degrees (Is this 20 degrees south of east ??) and put on a plane travelling north, so the G81 square reference looks wrong - with one airman baling out My best guess was this was Barzelt & Hartmann of 16/KG 2 who left south of Lille (Vendeville ?) at 01:20 (GMT presumed) to bomb an airfield south of Cambridge but it could equally have been Benner and Reimers also of 16/KG 2.

The claim by Mackinnon and Menlove at 23:22 on 23 Aug could not have been Barzelt and Hartmann, even allowing for the time of 01:20 being German time (00:20 GMT) This was before they had taken off ! There is no description of anyone getting out of the plane. This seems to imply that it was the only other German 410 lost that night - the one of Benner and Reimers.

So if there was a friendly fire incident that night it fell to either Rad and Lovestad or Goodman and Backhouse.

Neither Rad and Lovestad nor Goodman and Backhouse describe any parachutists leaving the planes they had struck - so nothing to distinguish between these two claims in terms of timing or survivors.

So both somewhere out from Dunkirk. Say No to dredging the Goodwin Sands !!!

Given the recent underwater survey off the Normandy beaches revealed 600 potential targets one struggles to imagine how many and what would show up if a similar survey was taken off Dunkirk.

Thanks to all the air historians whose research has helped us to understand and come to terms with these events.

Howard & Lorraine