Hartmann's victims

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Guys

Thank you for your many replies. I will cross-check the Nick list against the whole of 7./JG 52 and 9./JG 52. Seems Hartmann was an opportunist whilst over-claiming.

Certain facts are clear.

In the Summer of 1944 when Hartmann was making huge numbers of claims I cannot really find any obvious obliging wingmen, by that I mean wingmen that get a small share of the over-claiming.........this is quite off putting, in my opinion a dodgy wingman would need an incentive, there would appear to be none. This could mean that everybody with these Staffel's was dodgy.......in my opinion.

If Hartmann's claims over Hungary are honest, well something must have changed. Could be combat no longer over enemy territory, could be a change in personal.

Hartmann was unpopular among his piers, is this because they suspected something(which would suggest there own innocents), or was he not looking after his wingmen.......we are told he only ever lost one wingman, I suspect this is far from the truth?

I have sort have cleared Herbert Bachnick of collusion with Hartmann.

I have not proven any pilots of I./JG 52 of being dodgy....is this the case I now wonder?

A big question is why would wingmen witness his over-claims without personal gain.

It would seem that Nowotny and Hartmann were always going to lead in scoring, because they would claim whatever it took to lead.

Can I ask what about those out-claimed i.e Rall and Barkhorn, how do their claims match-up to losses? With Wilhelm Batz, he had quite a few of his earlier claims A.S.M i.e no air witness, but he did have ground witnesses, surely these are reliable......at least.

Actually Hartmann's claims are remarkable as none are A.S.M, Rall certainly had some, and never really had "big days".

If Hermann Graf also over-claimed, did this process continue with 9./JG 52.

Finally today I read the Toliver/Constable Hartmann book in my childhood, yet nothing in it would appear fact, no Mustang's, no four Il-2's ploughing into the ground after one shot, actually no seventy Il-2's.......hardly any at all. How much information did Hartmann give to the authors I wonder.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Johannes, here is Barkhorn, followed by Rall

Barkhorn’s known victims and overclaims

16th victory: 27.5.42/1528, Pe-2, NE of Petrovskaya @ 100m. 223 BAD, 2 VA. Losses believed to be in excess of 16 crews. Includes Divison CO Podpolkovnik I K Kosenko and Polkovnik Yuri N Gorbko HSU plus Lt. Ivan Sirko all KIA. 24 BBAP (Gorbko's unit) alone lost 6 Pe-2s

20th victory: 11.6.42/0945, LaGG-3, Kupyansk sector. Possibly from 170 IAP, 217 IAD, 4 VA. Ml.Lt. Vasily Pimenovich Bajdov KIA

36th victory: 1.7.42/1011, DB-7 Boston, 794 BAP, 221 BAD. 6 total losses including crew of Lt. Aleksey Stepanovich Cherkashenko (AE CO) lost in air combat this date. Ex-RAF serial AL267 was among the losses

65th victory: 7.10.42/0805, LaGG-3, 246 IAP. Lt. Vasily Makarovich Starodubtsev KIA (combat report stated that the pilot was seen to bale out)
66th victory: 7.10.42/1325, LaGG-3, NE of Tuapse (PQ 95674) @ 2800m. These two claims likely against Ml. Lt. Aleksey Iosifovich Dogaev of 246 IAP, baled out safely (slight overclaiming). Note: All Barkhorn's victims reported to have baled out safely. (Also claimed by Werner Quast)

67th and 68th victories: 7.10.42/1325, LaGG-3, Gunaiberg (PQ 95674) @ 2800m. Engagement was with 5 LaGG-3s of 246 IAP and 2 Yak-1s of 518 IAP, 236 IAD, 5 VA. These two claims were likely against the 518 IAP Yaks, which lost Lt. Sergey Mikhaylovich Kolesnikov (official report dates his loss 6.10.42) and St. Serzhant F.B. Varfolomeev

75th victory: 29.10.42/1442. Yak-7B (claimed as a "Yak-1") 2km N of Altebinal (PQ 95732) @ 1200m. Possibly Podpolkovnik Dmitriy Leontyevich Kalarash (in a LaGG-3) of 402 IAP, 236 IAD. Said to be KIA in a Taran or WIA and returned home, DOW. Also possibility of Kapt. Segey Sergeevich Shchirov of 518 IAP

79th victory: 3.11.42/1445. LaGG-3 10km N of Tuapse (PQ 95741) @ 2000m. One source says Yak-1s and LaGG-3s of 6 GIAP, 25 IAP and 62 IAP of VVS ChF involved. Believe this was from 269 IAP, two losses including pilot Simonovich baled out (Barkhorn's claim seen to bale out)

81st victory: 15.11.42/0900. LaGG-3 5km SE of Lasarewskoje (PQ 94162) @ 1000m. 246 IAP. Serzhant K K Pozdnyakov KIA and Serzhant A Mitrofanov baled out WIA (the other loss was due to Otto Foennekold)

103rd and 104th victories: 9.1.43/1245 and 1250. Yak-1s. Kuberke railway station/Simovniki sector. 236 IAP. Said to be Lev Shestakov and Mladshiy Leytenant Vasiliyev both bellylanded and managed to escape before Barkhorn strafed the wrecks
105th victory: 10.1.43/0617 Yak-1 Remontnaja (Ramostnaja?) (PQ 28852) @ 2500m. Barkhorn is said to down Shestakov a second time in as many days…

112th and 113th victories. 12.2.43/0603 and 0610 I-16s Kabardinka sector. Legitimate victories: 236 IAD, 5 VA. Two losses

119th victory. 26.2.43/1045. LaGG-3 7km SW of Kabardinka (PQ 75463) @ 3000m. 269 IAP. Legitimate victories, two losses: 2742 of pilot Sokolov and serial unknown of pilot Malyshev (Quast downed the other)

122nd victory. 29.4.43/1320. Yak-1 (claimed as a “LaGG-3”) 8km NE of Mingrelskaja (PQ 86792) @ 4000m. 812 IAP, 265 IAD, 3 IAK, 4 VA. Losses include Leytenant G V Kramarenko, Leytenant A G Kostenko and Starshina I D Kukushkin. Ml.Lt. Konstantin Konstantinovich Adamchuk also severely WIA this date (several other pilots claimed victories in the engagement)

126th victory. 30.4.43/0745. Lend-lease Spitfire. 5km N of Cholmskaja (PQ 34 Ost 85161) @ 500m. 57 GIAP. Serzhant Marchenko reported MIA, later returned safely

165th and 166th victories: 5.9.43/1055 and 1105. La-5s (claimed as “LaGG-3s”) Poltava-Konontajew sector. One of these was 41 GIAP, 2VA. Kpt. Nikolay Fedorovich Klepikov (HSU) KIA

200th victory: 30.11.43/0950. LaGG-3 (Claimed as a "Yak-1") Western end of Kolonka @ 2500m. 249 IAP. Mayor F N Kulyakin, Lt P M Batyrev and MlLt S I Karlamov all damaged in this engagement (Duettmann also claimed)

203rd victory: 2.12.43/1039. P-39 Airacobra (Claimed as a “Yak-1”) S of Eltigen @ 500m. 101 GIAP. Ml. Lt. Yakov Dementeev KIA

204th victory: 2.12.43/1048. IL-2 Sturmovik E of Eltigen @ close to water's surface (Russian sources say into the sea, W of Taman). No. 1870571 of 210 ShAP, 232 ShAD. Ml. Lt. Valentin Elush KIA

216th and 217th victories 28.12.43/0847 and 0853 LaGG-3 ("Yak-1") and IL-2 Sturmovik Kerch – Dzhankoi LaGG-3s of 88 IAP (1 loss) escorting IL-2s of 55 OKAE (no losses). St.Lt. Georgiy Ivanovich Naumov WIA (6 personal + 3 shared kills), died 31.12.43 of gangrene after amputation of both hands

218th and 219th victories 28.12.43/1020 and 1023 2 x LaGG-3s (claimed as "Yak-1s") Kap Chroni sector 790 IAP. Ml.Lt. Nikolai Georgievich Moskalev (3 personal + 2 shared kills) baled out but KIA, came down into icy water 1km E of Osoviny - One of these is an overclaim

220th victory 28.12.43/1207 Yak-1 Kertsch harbour basin @ 4500m 42 GIAP. Kapitan Nikolai Pechony (17 personal + 3 shared kills) belly landed WIA in face and arm

221st victory 28.12.43/1210 Yak-1 ("P-39 Airacobra") N of Baksy (Laksig) @ 4500m 66 IAP. Ml.Lt. Aleksandr Andrievskii safe

222nd victory 28.12.43/1221 Yak-1 Kertsch harbour basin @ 3500m 42 GIAP. St.Lt. Akhmet-khan Talovich Kankoshev (14 kills), HSU, KIA

248th victory 12.2.44/1258 Yak-1 ENE of Bulganak (PQ 66641) @ 3000m Possibly 48 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Yury Sergeevich Rubtsov MIA

249th victory 12.2.44/1320 Yak-1 25km SE of Rusa (PQ 66473) @ 2500m Was this No.22147 of 812 IAP? Ml.Lt. Sergey Semenovich Zuyev KIA

250th victory 12.2.44/1550 Yak-9 Mayak-Bakny area (PQ 66614) @ 2000m 42 GIAP and 249 IAP, 229 IAD, 4 VA and (most likely opponent) 979 IAP, 230 ShAD. Overclaiming, no losses

267th Victory 8.5.44/0917 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Balaklava area or 10km S of Sevastopol (PQ 35473) @ 600m 47 ShAP. Losses were: Lt. N N Kuzmenko & M Serzhant G Mochalov, ditched near Belobek; Mladshiy Leytenant A N Mikhailenko & Serzhant N P Zhuvagin downed 5km from Lyubimovki plus ml. Lieutenant E.G.Udaltsov bellylanded back at base with shot-out hydraulics (two claims by Krah)

268th and 269th victories 30.5.44/1655 and 1705 2 x P-39 Airacobras 10km S of Tudora (PQ 78643) Were these also from 129 GIAP, 205 IAD, 7 IAK? 153 IAP in action this day as well. Engaged against Fw190s without suffering any losses. 438 IAP lost Alexey Panfilovich Skripnikov KIA

270th and 271st victories 31.5.44/0538 and 0545 P-39 Airacobras Husi/Lasi sector On the basis of timing, one of these may have been Kpt. Pawel K. Eryomin of 16 GIAP (said to have been downed near Zacharka in combat with Fw190, 0630ST)

280th victory 16.11.44/1340 Yak-3 Jaszbereny area (PQ 98478) @ 2000m 3429214/"34" of 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.lt. Agdantsev safe

281st victory 16.11.44/1345 La-5 20km SW of Gyoergyoes (Gyongyos?) PQ 98452 39214932/"32" of 192 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt. Ol'nev WIA

282nd victory 17.11.44/1023 La-5 40km ENE of Budapest (PQ 98615) @ 1500m Possibly overclaiming, no permanent La-5 loss this date

283rd victory 17.11.44/1500 Yak-1B ("Yak-3") 30km SW of Gyoergyoes (Gyongyos?) PQ 98622 @ 3500m 37191 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Petrovich Isupov bailed out and returned on 19.11.44

293rd and 294th victories 3.1.45 IL-2 Sturmoviks Likely legitimate victories: 17 VA lost 13 IL-2s this date

295th and 296th victories 3.1.45 Yak-9s 17 VA lost 8 Yak-9s and 1 Yak-1B (No. 22167) this date

297th, 298th and 299th victories 4.1.45 3 x La-5s 17 VA lost 1 La-5F and 3 La-5FN this date

300th victory 4.1.45 Yak-9 17 VA lost 1 Yak-1B, 2 Yak-9D and 1 Yak-9T this date

301st victory 5.1.45 La-5 Possibly an aircraft of 31 IAP or 116 IAP



Guenther Rall
1st claim: 18.5.40/1840 Curtiss Hawk 75A S of Metz No. 27 of GC II/5. Sgt-Chef Otto Hanzlicek baled out safely (Lothar Ehrlich also claimed this one: slight overclaim)

2nd claim: 24.6.41/0725 DB-3 or SB (all 11 claims made in this engagement were identified as DB-3s) E of Constanza @ 6000m DB-3Fs of 2 MTAP, VVS ChF (3 losses) and SBs of 40 SBAP,, VVS ChF (7 losses)

4th claim 26.6.41/0510 SB (misidentified as a "DB-3") NE of Constanza @ 4000m 40 BAP, VVS ChF. Overclaiming, only nine losses (versus 18 claims in total)

11th claim: 13.8.41/1052 I-16 "Rata" NW of Kanev @ 1500m 88 IAP. Includes Mladshiy Leytenants Ivan Novikov and Yakov Kozlov, both KIA (Guenther Luetzow of JG 3 also claimed 2 x Ratas)

26th claim: 23.10.41/1332 Yak-1 (claimed as an “I-61”) S of Aleksandrowka 5 AE, 32 IAP, VVS-ChF. One loss (Koeppen and Steffen also claimed)

32nd claim: 22.11.41/1350 MiG-3 (claimed as an “I-61”) SE of Agrafenowka @ 1200m Possibly 55 IAP, Serzhant Leonid Mitrofanovich Stashevskij KIA (Wachowiak also claimed)

33rd claim 23.11.41/1335 IL-2 Sturmovik SE of Rostov @ 100m 4 ShAP. No further details known

35th and 36th claims 28.11.41/1027 and 1505 MiG-3 plus I-16 Rostov sector. Were these from 8 IAP? They lost Mudarakshe Sabirovich Saberzyanov KIA plus Aleksandr Petrovich Shcheglov shot down, returned later (several other pilots claimed…)

37th claim 2.8.42/0935 I-153 S of Ssalsk (PQ 17791) @ 1000m Could this actually have been Serzhant Synbulat Buranbaevich Synbulatov of 657 ShAP KIA?

49th claim 14.8.42/0952 DB-7 Boston N of Karagach 219 BAD. 859 BAP lost several Bostons this date, crews of Sergey Mikhailovich Lukaszewicz, Starshina Gavriil Nikolayevich Bryukhanov, Okinf Afanasovich Kuznetsov, Aleksandr Fedorovich Lushin

51st and 52nd claims 16.8.42/1004 and 1007 LaGG-3s N of Kuba (PQ 34134) 805 IAP, 4 VA. Seeking further details…
53rd claim 17.8.42/0723 I-153 W of Altud (PQ 34433) @ 200m 84 IAP, Leytenant Nikolay Litovchenko KIA

66th claim 4.9.42/1349 MiG-1 S of Mozdok One of these was likely Serzhant Sergey Mikhailovich Bassov of 805 IAP KIA, the other Nikolai Radionovich Bakhirev of 926 IAP KIA 6km S of Mozdok (ties in with two claims by Karl Gratz)

67th and 68th claims 6.9.42/0955 and 1035 LaGG-3s S of Mozdok Confirmed in Soviet loss reports (were escorting 219 BAD). Believe it was 926 IAP, they lost Alexey Grigoryevich Buldakov definitely in combat with fighters

69th claim 7.9.42/0842 LaGG-3 S of Mozdok (PQ 44452) 790 IAP, 219 BAD. Believed to be Batalyonnyy Komissar Fedosiy Dubkovskiy KIA, but there were seven other losses

70th claim 7.9.42/0846 Pe-2 S of Mozdok (PQ 44454) 366 BAP, 219 BAD. Three losses, includes crew of Starshina Nikolay Ivanovich Pyanikh all KIA

73rd claim 9.9.42/1648 LaGG-3 SE of Mozdok (PQ 44461) @ 1700m 4 VA. One of these was Starshina Sergei Semenovich Bespalov of 131 IAP KIA near Malgobek this date. 790 IAP, 219 BAD lost Yakov Maksimovich Skubickij and Dmitry Maximovich Fedorenko both KIA by fighters in LaGG-3s (several other claiming pilots…)

74th and 75th claims 10.9.42/1635 and 1642 LaGG-3s Mozdok sector 4 VA. Day's losses include 862 IAP lost Serzhant Yuri Anatolievich Serebryakov KIA. 962 IAP lost Serzhant Yuri Anatolievich Serebryakov and St.Serzhant Timofei Vasilievich Tretyakov (definitely to fighters) both over Mozdok Also lost over Mozdok was 790 IAP's Ml.Lt. Evgenii Efimovich Harol′skij KIA by fighters. 926 IAP lost Valentin Allakhiyarovich Emirov KIA in alleged taran (many claims this date, very hard to track…)

79th and 80th claims 22.9.42/0834 and 0836 IL-2 Sturmoviks Samakul-Daiskoje sector 47 ShAP, 217 IAD, 4 VA. St. Lt. Matyushin shot down and Serzhant V E Ryabchenko's IL-2 written off after landing

82nd claim 28.9.42/1602 LaGG-3 S of Werchnij-Kurp (PQ 44552) @ 1500m 4 VA. Day's LaGG-3 losses include Lt. Ivan Fedorovich Sushko of 131 IAP KIA. 790 IAP (part of 219 BAD) lost Ml.Lt. Petr Andreevich Shchurov KIA

83rd claim 28.9.42/1607 LaGG-3 S of Nishnij Kurp (PQ 44539) @ 1000m Likely Lt. Nikolai Andreevich Chebotarev of 979 IAP. Definitely MIA in a LaGG-3 this date, this area

96th and 97th claims 19.10.42/1301 and 1303 I-16 "Ratas" Elchotowo sector 88 IAP. Slight overclaiming, only one loss: Serzhant Viktor Illich Shakhov KIA

98th – 100th claims 22.10.42/1432-1436 2 x LaGG-3s and La-5 Werchnij-Kurp - Nishnij-Kurp - W of Werchne Atschakuli 131 IAP. Their losses this date include Serzhant Nikolai Afanasyevich Khudyakov KIA

117th and 118th claims 21.4.43/0604 and 0701 La-5s ("LaGGs") Kabardinka – Gelendzhik 229 IAD. Losses include 13 IAP's Starshina Nikolay Grinko baled out but KIA (parachute was burnt and failed) and 437 IAP's pilot Ivan Norin baled out safely (3 other claims by different pilots)

119th claim 23.4.43/0732 LaGG Into the sea, 10km W of Gelendzhik (PQ 75492) @ 2000m Massive overclaiming this day, 30 claims for 10 Fighters lost by 4 VA. Includes all damaged machines and two P-39s lost in a collision. 40 IAP La-5s were in action and suffered no losses.

120th claim 28.4.43/1215 Lend-lease Spitfire V NW of Krimskaya (PQ 75231) @ 500m 57 GIAP. Gv.St.Lt. Viktor Radkevich (5 personal and 4 shared kills) KIA

121st claim 28.4.43/1225 LaGG E of Krimskaya (PQ 85113) @ 3500m 291 IAP. This one said to be St.Lt. Shirobokov, baled out safely

122nd claim 29.4.43/0759 Lend-lease Spitfire V 10km N of Novo Cherkassk (PQ 85151) @ 400m 57 GIAP. Gv Lt. Semenov

126th claim 3.5.43/0758 P-39 Airacobra Abinskaya area (PQ 85144) @ 4000m 298 IAP, 229 IAD, 4 VA lost Kapt. Vasiliy Mikhaylovich Drygin baled out to Bf109s escorting Stukas this date (several other claiming pilots…)

133rd claim 5.5.43/1009 Yak-7 (claimed as a "LaGG") SE of Krimskaya (PQ 85141) @ 1500m 15 IAP, 278 IAD. Ml. Lt. Pavel Vlasovich Podmogil'ny

134th claim 5.5.43/1209 P-39D-2 Airacobra E of Krimskaya (PQ 85113) @ 2000m 16 GIAP, St.Lt. or Kapt. Vadim Ivanovich "Boroda" Fadeyev KIA - bellylanded safely but found DOW

143rd claim 21.5.43/0734 La-5 (claimed as a "LaGG") Into sea 5km S of Kabardinka/Gelendzhik (PQ 75464) @ 800m 25 IAP. St.Lt. Vladimir Leontievich Khaldeev KIA

150th claim 8.7.43/1835 Yak-1? (claimed as a “LaGG”) 20km N of Prokhorovka (PQ 61132) @ 800m. Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore, Hartmann claimed the other two)

152nd and 153rd claims 9.7.43/1533 and 1543 N of Prokhorovka 27 IAP. Four losses: Mayor Aleksandr Volkov (Eskadrilya commander), Mladhsiy Leytenant Ivan Shpak, Mladshiy Leytenant Nikolay Shapkin and Leytenant Khopan Zabrodskiy all KIA (Melzer claimed the other two)

159 and 160thth claims 17.7.43/1908 and 1916 2 x Yak-7Bs (claimed as "LaGGs") Bolkhov-Orel sector Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. Losses include unit CO, Maj. Jean Tulasne and Lt. Firmin Vermiel (name also given as Vermeil) both KIA plus Lt. Didier Beguin returned (other claim by Rudolf Trepte who claimed an IL-2 though none of those being escorted were actually lost so he must have misidentified…)

230th and 231st claims 22.10.43/1408-1420 P-39 Airacobras Mironovka sector One of these was M.Lt. Pavel Kleymenov of 16 GIAP

233rd claim 24.10.43/1520 P-39 Airacobra Kalinowka area (PQ 58562) @ 5000m M.Lt. Aleksandr Samsonov of 16 GIAP

249th claim 28.11.43/0827 Yak-1 (claimed as a "LaGG") S of Zaparozhe (Lagoroshje?) @ 2000m 15 IAP, no further details known to me at present

253rd claim 26.2.44/1437 P-39 Airacobra Aleksandrovka area (PQ 29522) @ 2500m 438 IAP. Rall and Bachnick are believed to have claimed against Mladshiy Leytenant Vodolazhskiy, who baled out safely.

274th claim 29.4.44/1115 P-38J-10-LO Lightning N of Hannover (PQ 05 Ost S/FU) @ 8000m Known to be against 364th FG. Their 384th FG had 3 losses: 42-67417/5Y-D of Lt. Shorndin D McCloud (fate unknown), 42-67438/5Y-I of Lt. Kenneth M Shaffer POW and 42-67447/5Y- of Lt. Eugene L Smith POW

275th claim 12.5.44/1220 P-47D Thunderbolt Frankfurt-Main area Said to be from the 56th FG but their loss locations match much better with JG 5's claims. Overclaiming? Unless it was P-47D-15-RE 42-76352 of 351st FS, 353rd FG

[Evgeny Velichko]

Gentlemen, for Barkhorn's claims/overclaims, please look closer into Ivan Lavrinenko (Иван Лавриненко) articles on warspot. Highly recommend.

[HGabor]

Hartmann kept overclaiming over Hungary. If I am a nice guy to him, I'd say about 50%, if I am strict, it can be up to 70%. (Depends on if I approve a soviet loss within 30, 60, or more minutes and/or 5-10-15, etc. km difference to his claims.)

Perhaps his own personal ambitions and the Luftwaffe's propaganda need in difficult times for a German 'superhero' met in his case and therefore his officials allowed his behavior. I don't know.

But the fact is that many of his claims have no evidences in soviet loss-records, while for eg. Helmut Lipfert they match for over 90%! (in Hungary) So it's not the soviet records, but the pilots, who claimed them. The multiple levels of cross-references in the soviet mechanical reports (especially in 1944-45) did not allow manipulation with the numbers, so aircraft losses could not be hidden. And of course the soviets did not know who shot them down, so it is absolutely not realistic to say that they manipulated the records, just to push Hartmann's achievements down.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Gentlemen, for Barkhorn's claims/overclaims, please look closer into Ivan Lavrinenko (Иван Лавриненко) articles on warspot. Highly recommend.

Hi Evgeny, do you have a URL for these articles?

[Evgeny Velichko]

http://warspot.ru/users/17612-ivan-lavrinenko/published

http://warspot.ru/7199-luchshiy-den-gauptmana-barkhorna

[Nick Hector]

Thanks Evgeny!

[focusfocus]

Hi gentlemen

I have some remarks and questions.

Rall:about his claim of 18/05/40
What do we do with the claims of Lothar Ehrlich,Otto Decker,Adolf Walter (one Curtis each).

Review of GC II/5:
Effectively Hanzlicek shot down (Curtis n°27).

but also
Lt Houzé crash-landed (Toul Curtis n°129)
Cdt Hugues posed in emergency to Metz-Frescaty (Curtis n°144 abandoned,very badly damaged)

So 3 losses for 4 claims.
Testimory of Rall after war:
After his fight,he made his report without claiming anything (he had not had time to see his bullet reach his target).

"I was surprised to learn that I had shot down a Curtis (Testimony of Lt Lossnitz)"

So,Hanzlicek actually shot down by Rall?...not so sure.

About Barkhorn:

281° abschuss 16/11/44 "20 km SW Gyongyos" LA-5 192 IAP Ml.Lt.Ol'nev....Actually?

And the claims of Debrody Gyorgy (La-5 "Jaszberény":36 km Sud Gyongyos (claim of Barkhorn)by road

Boldizsar Laszlo (La-5 "Jaszfelsoszentgyorgy":10 km of Jaszberény and 45 km of Gyongyos,by road)

Pintér Gyula (La-5 "Jaszberény") by road

Ewald (La-5 "98491")

To my Knowledge 14 Yaks and 2 La-5 lost over eastern Hungary that day,Ml.Lt.Ol'nev actually shot down by Barkhorn?....possible but not so sure and seems overclaiming.

So, Gentlemen,Any Idea?

Best Regards


Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Have just checked Nowotny's claims. I was always led to believe the super Schwarm was Schnorrer, Rademacher and Dobele. It would appear that Rademacher had little to do with it, but Gerhard Loos seemed to be the third guy after Nowotny himself and Dobele. Schnorrer must be the only one to follow Nowotny to the Stab.III./JG 54, where Nowotny seems to be the only person claiming!

With Rudorffer at the Stab.II./JG 54 it would appear that his rottenflieger Kurt Tangermann did well out of the deal, but not Schnorrer.

I get the impression that usually with the stab there would only be two pilots flying.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

On November 16, 1944 La-5 total-losses over Hungary in 5 VA (2nd Ukrainian Front) zone:


5 VA, 279 IAD, 192 IAP, La-5F, S/N: 39214932, pilot: мл.л-т Ольнев Владимир Михайлович. Pilot OK, later returned. "16:00 4 Ла-5 и 9 Ил-2 цель район Хатван. Н-2400 м в р-не 2-3 км СВ Надьката во время штурмовки атака 6 ФВ-190. Сбит, выбросился на парашюте, открыл парашют на 2000 м , 20.11.44 прибыл в часть." So IL-2 escort, combat with 6 enemy fighters. Note: Bf 109s and Fw 190s were ofter misidentified in the air in dark, cloudy November. Time is Moscow, local time.


5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 178 GvIAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39212952, pilot: гв.ст.л-т Жигуленков Борис Васильевич, KIA at Besenyszög. "11:45 - 12:35 5 Ла-5 вед ГСС Евстигнеев прикрытие в р-не Ясберень, Пустомонштор, Ясароксаллаш (Jászberény, Pusztamonostor, Jászárokszállás) 3 Ла-5, вед Евстигнеев - ударная группа, 2 - вед Щетинин - сковывающая. Бой с 12 Ме-109 и 8 ФВ-190. В конце прикрытия в районе Пусто-Моноштор (Pusztamonostor) 5 Ме-109 атаковали группу парами сверху. Наши истребители оттягивали противника на свою территорию.В р-не Бешшенсег (Besenyszög) 6-й Ме-109 снизу сзади атаковал ГСС Жигуленкова. Отвалилась правая консоль, летчик убит снарядом в голову. Самолет беспорядочно упал в р-не 3 км вост Бешшенсег (Besenyszög)." Hungarian Bebrődy György's claim, who was shot down soon afterwards mutually by a 85 GvIAP Yak-9D, S/N: 2015329 (гв.мл.л-т Рулев Измаил Семёнович, KIA).

5 VA lost 14 Yaks during the day, while 17 VA lost a Yak-9T (0815350) still in Yugoslavia. Other claims were only damaged planes, therefore they were not total-losses. Can be considered overclaims.

Gabor

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

As much as I have been able to trace on this forum and elsewhere...

Hartmann's known victims and overclaims:

No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA

It's not the good time. 14.15 in german time, it's 15.15 one hour too late.

Kpt. Albert Littolff have certainly been shoot by :


16.07.43 Oblt. Herbert Aloé 12./JG 54 Yak-1 £ 54 643: at 1.500 m. 13.12 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 73

The Littolf's plane have been found at 8,4 kilometer from the center of this gradnetz.