Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 2nd February 2013, 15:17
Dmitry Volodin's Avatar
Dmitry Volodin Dmitry Volodin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Moscow
Posts: 60
Dmitry Volodin is on a distinguished road
Next 10 jagdwaffe pilots - where they were on 22.06.1941?

My question as usual - where were these pilots on 22.06.1941 and their final fate:

Karl-Heinz Bendert (claim №6 – 06.09.40, №7 – 22.11.41), II./JG27
Emmerich Fluder (claim №5 – 01.09.40, №6 – 22.11.41), II./JG27
Ferdinand Vögl (claim №4 – 06.09.40, №5 – 23.11.41), II./JG27

Werner Rethfeld (last claim 15.08.40), III./JG27
Albert Kurtz (last claim 08.08.40), III./JG27
Hans Umbach (last claim 08.08.40), III./JG27

Rudiger Belling (last claim 11.02.41), I(J)./LG2
Siegfried Krause (last claim 24.08.40), I(J)./LG2
Gerhard Hubrich (last claim 24.08.40), I(J)./LG2
Gerhard Haak (last claim 10.07.40), I(J)./LG2
Georg Schott (claim №13 – 10.01.41, №14 – 22.06.43 in JG1), I(J)./LG2

Dmitry
__________________
Zerstorer Research Work Group,
"Geschichte des Zerstörergeschwader 26 (Ostfront)"
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 3rd February 2013, 14:53
Alain57 Alain57 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,823
Alain57 is on a distinguished road
Exclamation Re: Next 10 jagdwaffe pilots - where they were on 22.06.1941?

Hello ,

Perhaps is this man the one you are looking for :

Fluder
Emmerich
Oberleutnant
12.05.1915
Wien
Date of missing
31.05.1942
Place Tobruk
Buried at Tobruk

Regards
Alain
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 3rd February 2013, 16:18
Charles Bavarois Charles Bavarois is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Munich
Posts: 212
Charles Bavarois is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Next 10 jagdwaffe pilots - where they were on 22.06.1941?

Hello Dmitry,


this is what I found:



Karl-Heinz Bendert
Ritterkreuzträger, only with II/JG 27 and some training-units. No claims against USSR
Emmerich Fluder
KIA 31.05.42, only 5/JG 27, no claims against USSR
Ferdinand Vögl
Only 4/JG 27, no claims against USSR, survived
Werner Rethfeld
Only 9/JG 27, no claims against USSR, survived
Albert Kurtz
Only III/JG 27, no claims against USSR, survived
Hans Umbach
Only 8/JG 27, no claims against USSR, KIA 27.06.41
Rudiger Belling
Listed with 1/JG77, KIA 16.4.43, seems there were no claims against USSR
Siegfried Krause
Listed with 3/LG 2 only, no claims against USSR, survived
Gerhard Hubrich
Listed with I/LG 2 only, no claims against USSR, survived
Gerhard Haak
Listed with 3/LG 2 and 4/JG 54, claimed 1 in Poland, 1 in West, 10 against USSR, KIA 25.10.41
Georg Schott
Listed with 2/LG 2 and 1/JG 1, claimed 3 with Legion Condor, 18 in the West, no claims against USSR, KIA 27.9.1943

Jochen Priens Geschwader-chronicles have the following bases for 22.06.1941:
II/JG 27 at Prasniki airfield, 50 kilometer SE of Insterburg
III/JG 27 at Sobolewo airfield nar Prasniki and Suwalki
I/LG 2 to Bukarest 18.06.41 and attached to JG 77, 21.06.41 to Roman airfield


Greetings


Carl
__________________
Carl E. Charles
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 4th February 2013, 21:35
Dmitry Volodin's Avatar
Dmitry Volodin Dmitry Volodin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Moscow
Posts: 60
Dmitry Volodin is on a distinguished road
Re: Next 10 jagdwaffe pilots - where they were on 22.06.1941?

Thank you Carl and Alain.

Here some my thinkings about these pilots.

Bendert, Fluder and Vögl were successful pilots prior Barbarossa and in Africa, but had’t any victoryes in Russia, so I suggest that in that period they served in someone training unit.

Rethfeld and Kurtz are missing in III./JG27 roster from December 1943.

Haak – when he went from I(J)./LG 2 to II./JG 54?
Schott – when he went from I(J)./LG 2 to I./JG 1?

Dmitry
__________________
Zerstorer Research Work Group,
"Geschichte des Zerstörergeschwader 26 (Ostfront)"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 7th February 2013, 03:57
Kapper Kapper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 129
Kapper is on a distinguished road
Re: Next 10 jagdwaffe pilots - where they were on 22.06.1941?

Dmitry,

I believe you’re going in the right direction with respect to pilots serving in training units. One of the myths of the Luftwaffe that pilots flew continuously until they were either killed or wounded is not entirely correct – experienced pilots were withdrawn for around 6 months (give or take a few months) to become instructors in various ErganzungsStaffeln/Gruppen as the demand required and in most cases returned to their original units. Though I have no direct proof for each of the pilots, hopefully the following can explain what I believed happened.

For the II./JG 27 pilots, it is noted that II./JG27 served on the Eastern Front for a short period claiming 38 victories between 22 and 29 June 1941. For the 3 pilots mentioned, to make several claims in the unit in 1940 and more with the same unit in North Africa in late 1941 it seems unusual for them not to claim any victories with the unit.

Bendert – A 6 victory experienced pilot at that stage of the war would probably have been a schwarmfuhrer or at least a Rottenfuhrer, thus would have had reasonable opportunity to make claims. Since he didn’t make any claims indicates that he probably was in a training unit as an instructor, rejoining the unit when it transferred from the Eastern Front to North Africa in the second half of 1941.

Fluder – being injured in a take off collision on 3 September 1940, it is difficult to tell if he was with the unit on 22 June 1941. He may have been still recovering from his injuries in a training unit or he could have been back with the unit but unsuccessful while trying to rebuild his confidence. It is difficult to tell.

Vogl – I note that Vogl’s first claim in North Africa was with Stab II./JG 27 while his next string of claims occurred after he became Staffelkapitan of 4./JG27 on 20 May 1942. Officers who serve in Stab’s - usually in the role of Adjutant – usually do not have the same amount of opportunity to claim as those within staffeln – as they were usually tied down with paperwork. He may have been in a training unit but I believe he was possibly in the Stab of II./JG 27 on 22nd June 1941

III./JG 27

Rethfeld – I have no record of Rethfeld after being WIA 27 Sep 1940. Possibly discharged due to wounds or ended up in a flight training school for the rest of the war. He was unlikely to have been with the unit on 22 Jun 1941.

Kurtz – I have nothing after his claim on 8 Aug 40, nor have I found him in any other unit linked with JG27 – mystery?

Umbach – as noted in previous post KIA 27 Jun 1941 therefore highly likely he was on the roster on 22 Jun 1941

I(J)./LG2

Please note that I(J)./LG2 became I./JG77 in January 1942.

Belling – in Prien’s history of JG77 he has this pilot claiming 4 victories as a Ltn. between July – November 1942 with 1./JG77, however in Prien’s JFV series he’s updated the JG77 claims and these were removed. Not that in Priens earlier works on JG53 and 77, it seems that he determined how many claims were made on given days from German records but not from who the claim were made. He built the victory lists up using such items as personal diaries and correspondence, and marked those he wasn’t sure about with a *. When more records became available he has since updated the JG53 and 77 claims list and as can be seen the Belling claims in 1942 were removed. To even be misidentifies as the claimant for these claims suggests that Belling was a pilot in this unit at that time. Therefore, since Belling’s only victory was as a Uffz on 11 Feb 41, that I(J)./LG2 became I./JG77 in January 1942, he was mentioned as a Ltn. in mid-late 1942 and was MIA with 1./JG77 on 16 April 1943, it is likely that Belling was only a wingman in 1941 and likely present on 22 Jun 1941. He seems to have had no success in 1941 before doing Officer training in early 1942, returning and eventually MIA - therefore most likely with I(J)/LG2 on 22 June 1941.

Krause – In Prienz JFV series Krause had a claim on 8 Dec 41 with 3(J)./LG 2 which was not confirmed. He was Injured on 29 Apr 42 after the unit became 3./JG77. I have some data after this but not sure if it is the same Krause. – Overall he was most likely with I(J)./LG2 on 22 June 1941 – just didn’t have the successes like other pilots.

Hubrich – Major Gunther Hubrich was a WWI ace of 12 victories. Between the wars he was a test pilot and joined the Luftwaffe in 1933 reportedly to be a test pilot. He is reported to have gained 2 victories in WWII of which only 1 is known – the claim of 24 Aug 40 with StabI(J)./LG 2. Being a Major in a unit commanded by a Hauptmann suggests that Hubrich was attached to the unit to gain operational experience before taking over a command of his own – a practice not uncommon in the first year of the war. However this also occurred around the time that Goring wanted younger leaders who would get up amongst it and withstand the stress of fighter combat. Therefore it is likely that Hubrich never went on to command his own unit as I have yet to find any further reference of him. It is highly unlikely that he was still with the unit on 22 Jun 1941.

Haak – as noted Haaks final victory in 1940 was on the 10 Jul 40 with I(J)./LG2 then next made a series of claims with 4./JG54 beginning 21 Aug 41 until KIA 25 Oct 41 at 11 victories. As II./JG54 had been in the thick of the battle making many claims from the 22 Jun 41 to when Haak claimed his first on the eastern front on 21 Aug 41, it appears that Haak was possibly an experienced replacement from a training unit. In late 1940 many experienced pilots were withdrawn to form Erganszungstaffeln which later became Gruppen (equivalent to Operational Training Units). As stated previously, in most cases these pilots returned to their original units, others ended up in newly raised units, however this one is a bit of a mystery to me at this stage as he didn’t follow either path. Anyway, it is highly unlikely that he was still with I(J)./LG2 on 22 Jun 1941.

Schott - I have in my notes that Schott was in 10./JG 1 which became 1./JG1 in April 1943. 10./JG 1 was formed by renaming Einsatzstaffel./Jagdfliegerschule 1 in March 1942 to replace the original 10./JG 1 which had become the new 1./JG5. This link to training units plus the lack of claims from such an experienced pilot in June 1941 it’s likely that Schott became an instructor with JFS 1 before progressing to JG 1. That makes it highly unlikely that Schott was with I(J)./LG2 on 22 Jun 1941.

I know that most of this is speculation on my part but hopefully it will help.

Regards,

Craig…
__________________
There is always three sides to an argument, Your's, Theirs and the Truth. Sometimes the Truth is hard to find.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13th February 2013, 21:49
Dmitry Volodin's Avatar
Dmitry Volodin Dmitry Volodin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Moscow
Posts: 60
Dmitry Volodin is on a distinguished road
Re: Next 10 jagdwaffe pilots - where they were on 22.06.1941?

Many thanks Craig for your help in establishing fighter pilots career. I'm compiling list of successful pilots of eastern front units on 22.06.41. It would be on my site - aviationandwar.ucoz.ru (I'm sorry but only in russian).

Best regards
Dmitry
__________________
Zerstorer Research Work Group,
"Geschichte des Zerstörergeschwader 26 (Ostfront)"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Korea-MiG-15 and the other side of the history Daniel Nole Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation 21 19th November 2021 21:05
sg10 in July 1944 keith A Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 14th June 2012 14:46
BF109G-12 RT Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 12 1st January 2011 20:16
Book on French AF 1939-40? The_Catman Allied and Soviet Air Forces 68 10th August 2008 16:58
Fighter pilots' guts Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 44 8th April 2005 15:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net