5th Photo Reconnaissance Group

[Alex Smart]

So Should we be looking at the -
3rd Photographic Recconacence Group, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron ?

[researcher111]

Alex Smart , for the sake of terminology
check above on MACR is confusing but you are right
and yet the flight was part of 15th AF based
Bari and San Severo possibly aircraft and pilot
leased to 15th AF by 12th Air Force . An other
hind which makes confussion greater is
that the F-5C "Denver Doll" later renamed
"R & R EXpress" was in the inventory of
15th AF based at San Severo ( see my previous
posts ) . The flight was ordered by 15th CMS
through 15th PRS and 5th PRG of the 15th Air Force !

Alex K

PS : His main targets on that day were over Romania
therefore Stig's remarks are not correct ! but
in general 12th AF had nothing to do with the Balkans

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hi Sti,g,

The MACR 8097
Date: 30th August 1944
Pilot : Hartwick.
A/C : 42-67117
5th Photographic Group
15th C,M Squadron.
7 pages.

Not
5th Photographic Squadron.

Thanks Alex

Makes excellent sense, and 15 CM was, as can be seen above from Maurer Maurer, a part of 5 PG.
For some unreason reason (to me) the USAAF kept re-designating their reconnaissance units over and over again, but kept their number. So CM at this point stood for Combat Mapping. I have in my mails just used one of the various units names (PRS and PRG)

Feel free to list all the other MACR in detail with regard to their exact PRS belongings.

Cheers
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

Aleks

No I am not wrong, just taking short cuts.
If you read my initial post 19 again, you will see I state that 5PRG went to the 15AF in October 1944. So when MACR 8097 was issued (30 Aug 1944) 5PRG still beonged to 12AF!
However, again for some unknown reason (to me) when 12AF was split into one tactical and one strategic AF the 15th did not receive any PR Group at all. 12AF kept both. Perhaps the immediate need was of such urgency for 12AF to maintain control over both and "in-between" jobs for 12AF also flew missions for the 15AF. At some point the need for 15AF to have its own PRS increased and in October the 5PRG was transferred over to 15AF control.

MACR 8097 has nothing to do with 5 PRS, which is the point I am trying to make. Your mixing in and mentioning of 5 PRS is as I see it wrong!

Hopefully Alex S will get back to us with a clear statement where his listed MACRs belonged (PRS wise). He has given a clear statement that all of them were from 5 PRG which again for clarity was with 12AF until October 1944 and from then on with the 15AF.

Cheers
Stig

[researcher111]

Agreed ! however I am after the flight status
dispatched to Romania which probably crashed
shortly after T/O into Adria and less after which
units had to be shiftted where and when etc

I have no records on 12th AF nor this is area
of my expertise .

Cheers
Alex

PS : If on Aug 30 the 5th PRG belonged to 12th AF
howcome it departed with F-5C of 15th AF out of
Bari enroute to the Balkans and Romania ?

[Sean Welch]

20th April 1944 loss of ship in Mediterranean.
Some posts back a question was asked about the loss of a ship in the Med affecting 5RG/32PS.
This was the SS "Paul Hamilton" which was hit by a glider bomb launched from a Ju88 off Cape Bengut, Algeria. The 32PS lost 318 men, by far the greatest proportion of the 580 men lost on this ship. The other losses affected 228 Medical Dispensary - Aviation and 485BG/831BS.
The "Paul Hamilton" was loaded with explosives which detonated causing the ship to disappear within 30 seconds of being hit. As a result only one of the 5RG airman has a known grave the other 317 are honoured on the Tablets of the Missing, North Africa American Cemetery, Tunisia.
MACR 15725 refers and carries a full list of the 5RG losses.

Sean

[researcher111]

Incredible story ,even more amazing is the German Abwehr could put their hands on such a fish the highly classified
info related to the route of the convoy SS P.Hamilton's was part of, carrying highly critical war effort personnel
thus using their newly developed radio controlled glide bombs despite active US countermeasures on the convoy.

Like many other past and present US mishaps aslo this info remained classified till 1967.

The fact that US military ordered some of their 500 Army Air Force personnel to use the highly explosives
loaded SS P.Hamilton as dispatch vessel to Italy appears to me seemingly absurd , inexcusably placing
well trained officers and crews in unnecessary hazard.

Its a shame

Alex K

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by researcher111

PS : If on Aug 30 the 5th PRG belonged to 12th AF
howcome it departed with F-5C of 15th AF out of
Bari enroute to the Balkans and Romania ?

Most probably it had begun flying more and more missions on behalf of the 15AF and it would not surprise me one bit if 15AF already considered the Group to be "theirs" even before the actual official transfer.

I have no first hand info Aleks, I am just a novice trying to make sense of what has already been written. What is basically needed is a list of all missions these PRG/PRS did and see if they were tactical or strategic in nature to see if this gradual shift actually took place.

I believe so, but without the missions I cannot prove (or disprove) the theory.

It might even be possible when the MAW volumes are complete to use them as a sort of basis as well.

Cheers
Stig

[researcher111]

Stig

Here's the Org of the 12th AF which further complicates
the general picture

Alex K

[Stig Jarlevik]

Not sure I follow you here Alexs

The attachment you have follows very closely what I said in post 19, except it does not bother to include the two PRS that were only with the 3 PRG for a shorter period.
3 PRG was with 12AF all its active period in the Med area

Cheers
Stig