Combat 27 July 1943 with 341 & 485 Squadrons

[Bruce Lander]

Hello Gentlemen,

can anyone tell me which Luftwaffe unit was involved in this well known
combat when 341 & 485 claimed 9 Fw.190's. Clostermann gives a very vivid account of the battle and it is also noted in Mouchotte's diaries and the biography of Johnny Checketts - any idea who the Major Von Graff (sic) really was ? and what losses were actually suffered by the Luftwaffe.
Looking forward to your reply

Bruce Lander

[Brian Bines]

JG 2 were in action this day with four pilots killed and one missing in combat with Spitfires. No mention of a Major von Graff perhaps this is a reference to JG 52 ace Hermann Graf hopefully someone else would have more knowledge. I think this may have been covered previously on the Forum.

[Bruce Lander]

Hi Brian

thanks for that info, I notice that in the revised edition of "The Big Show" that
Clostermann suggests that "Von Graff" may have been Oesau !
Do you have details of the JG2 losses (pilots, aircraft etc).
This is just one of several celebrated fights recorded in varoius books that have always intrigued me, several years ago I did an article in Aviation News on 23 May 1940 as that day saw a lot of well known aces in action for the first time - Tuck, Deere etc

Cheers

Bruce Lander

[Chris Goss]

FW 190 A-6, 530139, I Gruppe, Lt Horst Zettel killed, Gonneville/Pont L'Eveque
FW 190 A-6, 550161, 2 Staffel, Uffz Fritz Stueckmann killed Annebault
Bf 109 G-3, 16280, 11 Staffel Ofhr Herbert Messmer killed Le Plancay/St Mars
FW 190 A-6, 530149,Stab, Lt Reinhold Thiel killed Lisieux/Notre Dame de Voursan
Bf 109 G-6, 19914, 5 Staffel, Fw Peter Fasshauer missing, Somme Estuary

The fact that a member of the Stab was lost might add credibility to the Oesau aspect

[Brian Bines]

Hi Bruce,

1. Fw 190 A6 530139 I/26 Ltn Horst Zettel +, 2. Fw 190 A6 550161 2/26 Uffz. Fritz Stuckmann +, 3. BF 109 G3 16280 11/26 Ofhr Herbert Messmer +, 4. Fw 190 A6 530149 Stab Ltn Reinhold Thiel + 5. Bf 109 G6 19914 5/26 Fw. Peter Fasshauer missing.
Incidently the Graf story is similar to the following from the 1949 book 'Engines over London ' this describes how F/O Sammy Allard entered into combat durng the battle of Britain with the German ace Herr Von Udet who was flying an all red 109. While this alledged combat was going on the two combatants respective squadron mates flew around watching the outcome, in the event both pilots withdrew when their ammo ran out.
The book was written by a Lewis Whitnell and is dedicated to F/L G.Allard. In the introdution Whitnell is described by Douglas of Kirtleside ( formerly Sir Sholto Douglas) as joining the RAFVR in 1938 coming under Douglas' command in 1940 as a Sergeant and flying in the Battle of Britain, eventually becoming a Squadron leader and later an Airline Pilot.
The advert for the book said that Lord Douglas withdrew his remarks made in the introduction after publication, due to some of the authors claims,

Regards

Brian Bines

[Bruce Lander]

Hi
Brian and Chris - Thanks a lot for the information, it seems the old adage
never let the facts spoil a good story was very prevelant in the 1950,s and 60's.
cheers
Bruce Lander