Insignia for the Stabstaffel of KG2 circa 1940

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I'm gathering info for the KG 2 Profiles for the EOE Project. We know three examples of this insignia including

1) May-June, 1940: Stab KG2 Do17Z U5+?A, apparently forced down during the WC: have good nose-to-tail photo of this a/c FL, but with unreadable a/c letter and 1939-style fuselage insignia. Stabstaffel insignia is present, but is slightly out of focus although reasonably clear at a distance.

2) August 13, 1940: Stab KG2 Dornier Do17Z. Shot down by Hurricanes during attack on Eastchurch airfield and crashed on the railway at Pherbec Bridge, Barham, 8.30 a.m. Possibly that claimed by P/O J.A. Walker of No.111 Squadron. BO Oberlt Gerhard Oszwald (Staffelkapitän), BF Obergefr Gustav Babbe and BM Obergefr Ernst Holz all captured wounded, FF Oberlt Heinz Schlegel captured unhurt. Aircraft U5+KA 100% write-off.
Officer’s forage cap and Luftwaffe gravity knife confiscated from crew of this aircraft, donated to the Kent Battle of Britain Museum and now in the Hawkinge Aeronautical Trust collection.

The four known B&W photos of this crash in the EOE photo data base do not show the insignia, but Peter Cornwell informs me that this can be seen in a wartime Pathé film clip of the crash that he has seen. Does anyone have a copy of this newsreel clip from which the image of this insignia can be extracted?

3) August 23, 1940: Stabsstaffel KG2 Dornier Do17Z. Port engine damaged by AA fire during sortie to Coventry. Dumped bombs and belly-landed at Spring Wood, Lodge Farm, Wickhambrook, south-west of Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, 9.20 a.m. BO Oberlt Heinrich Hellmers (Staffelkapitän), FF Oberfw Günter Wagner, BF Fw Albert Dietl, and BM Uffz Paul Seidel all captured unhurt. Aircraft U5+EA 100% write-off.

The insignia on these three a/c shows a figure with a telescope to his eye falling from clouds astride a bomb. I think that this is similar to the image shown as a possible 4./KG2 insignia in Ketley & Rolfe #275. This shows the figure as a "Turk" with red pantaloons and fez, but Peter C. thinks the figure is more like "a (Baron) Munchhausen-type figure perched on a falling bomb..."

I'll attach a close up image of this insignia on U5+EA, although not very clear and sharp.

So, besides locating an image from the newsreel, does anyone have a source for any other images of this insignia, especially that shows more detail? We need to document this correctly for the profiles that we're working on.

Regards,

[Andy Mitchell]

Larry,

This is not great but may help

harvested from E-Bay in Aug 2007.

[obdl3945]

Larry,

I've only looked in on this thread this evening. I hope perhaps the undernoted are of interest.

U5+~C (x 2) would perhaps be the one you refer to in your first point, and U5+EA is possibly the one you refer to in your third point. In my collection I have noted the following caption, courtesy of Peter Cornwell on 10.06.2010: mission to Coventry, port engine damaged by AA fire. Bombs dumped and aircraft crash-landed at Spring Wood, Lodge Farm, Wickham Brook, 09.20hrs , which confirms what you have stated above.

All images are from old e-bay auctions between 2009 and 2011.

Regards,

Paul

[Larry Hickey]

Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. The first image was new to me and therefore much appreciated. The second I actually won the eBay auction, so am quite familiar with the photo. These both show U5+?A of Stabstaffel of KG2, vice II./KG2 in your records, circa May-June, 1940. There third photo was also already in the EOE Collection via Peter Cornwell.

The new photo will be most helpful in reconstructing that image, although I wished that I'd acquired the original so it was clearer.

Again, your help is much appreciated.

Regards,

[Peter D Evans]

As an aside, as the photo linked below clearly shows, the Do17Z coded U5+EA of Stab./KG2, recorded as a 100% loss, was indeed recovered by the British and therefore may have been subject to an RAF Intelligence Report where mention of the markings/emblems could have been made?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/osborne...57625836754972

The location of the recovered wreck has been confirmed as Norwich...

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[Larry Hickey]

Peter,

Yes, there is a "K-Report" filed for this a/c and the interrogation of the crew:

"A.I.1.(k) Report No. 277/1940

PLACE, DATE, and, TIME: Wickham Brook 23.8.40 0920 hours.
TYPE and MARKS: Do.17Z U5 + EA (E Duck egg blue)
Shield: Falling from cloud, a man sitting on bomb and holding a telescope.
UNIT: Geschwaderstab K.G.2
IDENTITY DISC: 58205
FELDPOSTNUMEMER: L 34222
AUSWEIS: Grey – issued Wurzburg – three on 30.1.40 and one on
1.3.40..."

From there it goes on to describe the mission flown and information on the crew.

For the EOE project, we've acquired a copy of and tediously re-typed all 1000 or so K-Reports for 1939-40 so that they can be integrated into our research data bases. This was well over a thousand type-written pages due to the fact that many of the reports are more than a page in length. We also have typed into our DB all of the British "G-Reports" that are strictly based upon examination of all the a/c wreckage through 31.12.40. Unfortunately, the file that I acquired for these reports doesn't begin the report sequence until late-August, 1940, after the loss of U5+EA, so there in no "G-Report" on this one in our system. If someone knows of the existence of one, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Regards,

[obdl3945]

Larry,

Glad I could be of some help. Could you help clear something up for me, though?

I note your comments about these machines being from Stabstaffel/KG2. I take this to mean Geschwaderstab, where the code ends in 'A'. This being the case, why do most images of these aircraft that I have seen with the 'figure on the bomb' emblem also have a (presumably red) noseband indicative of II.Gruppe and in contradiction of the code ending in 'A'? I have always though that the nosebands were Gruppe indicators, and of course, that would mean their codes ended B, C, D according to the relevant Gruppe in question. I do not immediately recall any Geschwaderstab machines with codes ending 'A' sporting such a device. Is this another interesting anomaly, or is there a straightforward explanation? Even given the images offered on this thread, is seems evident that the practice was not an isolated event.

Kindest regards,

Paul

[Clint Mitchell]

Hi, Peter.D.Evans has found some interesting images from a photo album on Ebay showing some Do17s sporting this emblem. Also a nice period drawing/version of the emblem on the LEMB Forum here.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Peter D Evans

As an aside, as the photo linked below clearly shows, the Do17Z coded U5+EA of Stab./KG2, recorded as a 100% loss, was indeed recovered by the British and therefore may have been subject to an RAF Intelligence Report where mention of the markings/emblems could have been made?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/osborne...57625836754972

The location of the recovered wreck has been confirmed as Norwich...

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Apologies for reviving an old post, but having looked at that photo, I can identify the location as the junction of Prince of Wales Road (with the properties and the Hippodrome) and Mountergate in Norwich.