Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by ZhekaB

Hello, Courtois!
Your hypothesis is quite realistic. But its weak point is time and altitude. According to the 303rd IAD's sortie log, Albert's group took off 09:15, returned 09:57; Puyad's group: 09:15-10:02; Matras's group 09:35-10:05. I don't know exactly which group Emone was in, but he was probably shot down around 09:45-09:50. In addition, the height of the Jahnke victory is 500m, while his group was escorting Pe-2 at 3000 m. But again, theoretically it could have been Jahnke.
Another interesting point: according to T. Wood's list this victory was won by Walter Jahnke, while in B. Barbas’s book it is recorded for Ofhr. Windisch. I am very curious as to how accurately the data in the T. Wood lists is recognized (from handwrited or typed records??)? My opinion there may be a lot errors in the time, squares, heights data.

By the way, I just had an article about circumstances, in which A.Hafner was killed on 17 Oct 1944:
https://warspot.ru/12325-posledniy-den-antona-hafnera
Maybe you’ll find it interesting...

Hello ZhekaB,


All, my apologies for the delay, but I am currently writing an atlas of Normandy-Niemen and I force myself to read all the reports of the Soviet ground and air units which takes me away from the forums.

I am currently working on the Gumbinnen Offensive, and clarification on the daily counts of German planes by the ground troops.

Regarding Emonet, in the 303 IAD flight log: (Журнал боевых вылетов частей 303 иад). It was noted that 10 Yak-3 under the orders of Commander Pouyade took off at 9.23 am and that 9 planes landed at 10.00 am. (Emonet not returned).

What makes for the Germans taking into account the time difference: 7:23 a.m. to 8:00 a.m.

Indeed the Jancke Hypothesis is not very good.

We must therefore return to the hypothesis;

17.10.44 Ofhr. Ludwig Strobel 9./JG 51 Yak-9 £ 25 623: at 1,500 m. 07.40 Film C. 2032 / I Anerk: Nr. -

Greetings and happy holidays to all.


PS: if you wish, I will post on the gumbinen offensive with all the Soviet reports, my maps and my statistics.

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Nokose

On the 17Oct44 the Groupie Normandie came to the rescue of a group of Pe-2 of the 135 GBAP east of Gumbinnen that had just bombed the R.R. station at Trakhenen. Sous Lt Charles Miquel and Sous Lt Maurice Challe shot down two Bf-109's. Does anyone know the times that they shot them down and if it was from JG52? I don't know if JG51 was flying any Bf-109's at that time.
Best Regards,
Michael

Hello Michael, The JG51 was flying Me- 109 too,


the time of the Challe's flight was 12h00-12h45 soviet time. or 10h00 - 10h45 german time. (I will always the soviet times in red and the german times in blue).

This day, the 135 Gv BAP don't bombed the eastern area of Gumbinnen.

All the bombing of the 6 Gv BAD and 276 BAD have been done in the Virbalis- Eidtkünen area and Goldap area :

9h27 Bombing Eidtkünen (2km South) by 9 Pe2 of the 6 Gv BAD protected by the 303 IAD.

9h29-9h50 Bombing of Eidtkünen by the 6 Gv BAD = 18 Pe2 of the 135 BAP + 27 Pe2 of the 134 BAP + 18 Boston of the 10 Gv BAP protected by the 303 IAD. 4 Fw-190 and 3 Me-109 seen.

10h bombing of Eidtkünen-Kirbataï by 77 Pe2 of the 276 BAD = 26 Pe-2 of the 35 BAP protected by 12 YAk9D of the 139 IAP. + 21 Pe-2 of the 58 BAP protected by 8 YAk9D of the 139 IAP +25 Pe-2 of the 130 BAP protected by 8 YAk9D of the 139 IAP. 6 Fw 190 Seen.

17h20 Bombing of Romintten (16km ENE of Goldap) by 27 Pe2 of the 134 BAP of 6 Gv BAD protected by the 303 IAD. No Pe2 loosed

17h25 bombing of Göritten (4 km south of Stallupönen) by 77 Pe2 of the 276 BAD = 25 Pe-2 of the 34 BAP protected by 10 YAk9D of the 168 IAP. 6 Fw 190 Seen, one of them been shooted down by a Pe2 and crashed 15 km SW of Gôritten

17h47 Bombing of Lauken (farm 13km SW of Schirwindt near Wabbeln) by 27 Pe2 of the 135 BAP (6 Gv BAD) protected by the 303 IAD. 2 Me-109 seen

17h50 Bombing of Budweitschen (farm 17km SW of Schirwindt)) by 9 Boston of the 6 Gv BAD (10 Gv BAP) protected by the 303 IAD.


Happy Christmass !

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Groupe Normandie had six Yak-3's up on patrol at 14:00 (Moscow) in the area of Gumbinnen when they saw 40 bomb laden FW190's approaching the lines. They moved into position and attacked. The 18 GIAP also attacked this formation.
Sous Lt Roger Sauvage claimed 1 FW190 and 1 probable FW190
Lt Col. Pierre Pouyade FW190 Probable
Sous Lt Pierre Lorillon 2 FW190
Have no information on who the other three pilots.
18 GIAP
Kapt Nikolai Grigoyevich Pinchuk FW190
St.Lt. Vladimir Alexandrovich Balandin FW190
St. Lt. Grigorii Prokopyevich Repikhov FW190
Alexei A. Kalyuzhnyi FW190
Kapt Nikolai Nikitovich Danilenko FW190
Lt Nikolai Agalakov and Zakhariya Gogotoevich Margoev each chased a FW190 into the ground.
Which SG unit from the Luftwaffe was operating in this area and what were their losses?

Hello everyone.

Soviet reports give a different version than the one given in posterity:

Журнал боевых действий 303 иад
Описывает период с 01.10.1944 по 31.10.1944 г.

в 12.35 на прикритие наземных войск в районе шталлупенен по вызову с КП командира дивизии вылетело 8 Як-3 1 ОИАП "НОРМАНДИЯ". В ройоне патрулованни на высоте 150 метров летчик встретиля 12 фв-190, с которыми вступили в бой, в результате во здушного боя капитан КЮО сбил 2 фв-190, мл-лт МАРКИ,ДЕ-ШАНЕ, ДЕ-САНФАЛЬ, САВАЖ сбили по одому фв-190


"Combat log 303 iad. Describes the period from 10/01/1944 to 10/31/1944.

at 12.35 pm, 8 Yak-3 1 OIAP "NORMANDIA" flew out on a call from the command post of the division commander to cover ground troops in the shtallupenen area. In the swarm of patrols at an altitude of 150 meters, the pilot met 12 fv-190s, with which they entered the battle, as a result, in an aerial battle, the captain of the KYuO shot down 2 fv-190s, jr-lt MARKS, DE-CHANET, DE-SANFAL, SAVAGE were shot down one at a time fv-190 ".

This once again illustrates the narrative bias, the emphasis of the "Journal de marche" published in 1946. The editor was not objective and transformed the facts to create a "chanson de geste".

Soviet reports give 16 victories (13 FW-190 and 3 Me-109) for the Normandie-Niemen to date.

Only 12 will be validated after wars. That day -3.5 victories are canceled at CUFFAUT and - 0.5 at Sauvage who must share it with Cuffaut.
Two other pilots saw their victories go from certain for the Soviets to probable for the French, who subsequently credited Lorillion with 2 victories.

If indeed Captain CUFFAUT loses today 3 victories following his "internal trial" for "overcleaming". However, he should not be stigmatized, he is not the only one in this case. He is just the only one denounced by "Yves COURRIERE".

The overclaiming on October 16 and 17 is due to the fact that the majority of the NN pilots were inexperienced and for many it fell from their first fight. Many equated the evasive dive of a plane he had hit with total destruction.

The subject alone would deserve a post, dealing with the real level of reinforcement pilots, a real analysis of the activity of the NN for the year 1944. I will spoil it a bit: the year 1945 is the most interesting.

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Gents:

There is a little mistake it TW lists: we should read not 4:45 but 9:45.

So, Hafner had 2 claims in that combat: Pe-2 and Yak-9 (Emonet). After that he was cought up by NN Yaks.

Challe's claim was at 10 km E of Goumbinen, Schurguponen
http://maps.yandex.ru/-/CBaXR03K

Goumbinen now is Gusev (Гусев), and place in 10 km E of it called Puspern (in late 1800th), later (in early 1900th) - Tublauken/Schweizersfelde. Now it calls Lomovo (Ломово).

Seems, Challe never forgot himself for friendlyfire, when he killed an 12-victory ace Arkhipov of brother-regiment 18 giap (both NN and 18 giap were from 303 iad), and persued each enemy to the end.

Most likely, he engaged Hafner and followed him from 3km to ground level (where YaK-9 was faster and much more maneuvrable then Bf109G-6), and during low-level dogfigt Hafner crashed avoiding Challe's attack.

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Gents:


Challe's claim was at 10 km E of Goumbinen, Schurguponen
http://maps.yandex.ru/-/CBaXR03K

Hello Evgeny,

The list of victories of the 303 IAD gives for the victory of Challe: 1 Me 109 5 km east of Stallupönen. And 10 km from Stallupönen was a "ghost" village following the plague of 1710, but whose name was still given on Soviet maps = Швигупенен = SCHWIGUPÖNEN (54.6546632,22.7840131)

https://www.bildarchiv-ostpreussen.d...s.cgi?id=60359


This "village" is on the front line on October 17th, wouldn't it be the right place?