Me 262 in Italy - photo evidence

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hang on....

So we now have "three" aircraft from III./EJG 2 force landing in the Landshut area on the same day, 6 Feb 1945.

WNr 170053 (engine fire, west Landshut), WNr 110530 (engine fire, north-east Landshut) and WNr 11053/111053 (engine fire, north-east Landshut)

Sounds to me like at least one (perhaps even two) too many.

A Frenchman, Philippe Saintes in Avions Hors-série #45 has come to the conclusion WNr 170053 is correct and the others wrong.

I think we can dismiss WNr 11053/111053 as bogus, but what about WNr 110530?

Cheers
Stig

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Jim, Stig,

Thanks for your inputs. Try as I might I have only one Me 262 with a flaming engine in the sky of Landshut that 6 February 1945...

- GQM #12-26, 190/45, 8.3.45, 37,as you say, Jim, mentions "W.Nr. 11053"
- Dan's and Horn's publications do mention W.Nr. 170053 only.

So, from where does 110530 fly in this question ? I still have no clue.

[Stig Jarlevik]

All three WNr are mentioned in Dan's Production log

They all have a similar final story
Cheers
Stig

[harrison987]

Remember that the number "1" in Europe is written similar to the standard "7" in the west.

Is it not possible that "170053" is actually a mis-reading of "110053"...?

[edwest2]

Yes, my mother wrote the number one this way. However, it is necessary to compare similar tail codes to arrive at a conclusion. I have yet to see a number one written with the long angle line.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

All three WNr are mentioned in Dan's Production log

They all have a similar final story
Cheers
Stig

Stig,

Thanks for confirming what is printed. Now can we really expect three Me 262’s with engines flaming in the sky of Landshut the same day at the same time ? If confirmed, this is more then astonishing…

Cheers
Matc

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by harrison987

Remember that the number "1" in Europe is written similar to the standard "7" in the west.

Is it not possible that "170053" is actually a mis-reading of "110053"...?

Harrison
Indeed it is a possibility but of all the three WNr ranges we have to consider
170053 is what the experts call a valid one and so is 110530
The only WNr not valid (as per our experts) is 110053 which thus also makes 11053 even more invalid.

So in my opinion the "fight" is between 170053 and 110530. Both these aircraft are listed as Me 262 A-1a, both have a similar fate (as per Dan's list) so a photo would need to be very specific if we should know the truth.

Personally, if we use the GQM data, "11053", I am leaning towards 110530 since that means the individual writing down the data for posterity made only one fault. If we lean towards 170053 the same person made a double fault. Of course that is based upon the assumption most individuals usually just have a bad day, not a very bad day....

However there is one final issue to consider. The individual writing for posterity also wrote it was a B-1 meaning if we add that to the equation we have a man (or woman) with an extremely bad day, making all my logic (well I tried...) null and void....

But I confess one thing, pretty fascinating discussion, isn't it?
Cheers
Stig

[Nick Beale]

Regarding 170053 from ULTRA:

CX/MSS/T505/29
Issued 0200/31/3 signed Adjutant:-
… 3) There are still 2 serviceable ((Me 262)) W/Nos. 1110818 [sic] and 111922 with pilots with KEGIA ((6./KG)) 51. Take off after restoration of runway probably on 31/3 to Unterschlauersbach. ((Me 262)) of (( (Roman) I./KG)) , W/No. 170053 Ltn. Strate will take off on 31/3 if enemy situation still permits.

CX/MSS/R. 507 (C)
12. Document stamped 0830/29/3, signed BATEL Ltn.
Strength return for 28/3:
((A/c)) total 6, serviceable 6, wks. nos. 111635, 170053, + 170103, 170105, 110744, +110427. KAMERADEN ((crews)) total 9, operational 9, ready 9.
NOTE: Ltn. BATEL signs for (Roman) I./KG 51. + Transfers of these aircraft on 30/3 in MSS/T.505/29, where wks. nos. given as 100103, 170427, respectively.

CX/MSS/R 530 (A)
10. From AMC Neuburg to AMC Burg Nr. Magdeburg dated 11/4:-
Red 1, Works No. 170053 made an emergency landing nr. Bachhollen S. of Neuburg. Pilot Ltn. Strat [sic], uninjured.
NOTE: Bachhollen not located but there is a Hollenbach 9 kms. S. of Neuburg - a.d. - Donau.

So according to the above sources, this was a serviceable aircrcaft on 29 and 31 March and was damaged on 11 April 1945

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Nick

Very interesting. Can ULTRA pull another white rabbit out of its hat and say anything
regarding WNr 110530?

From what I read of your summary above, ULTRA never knew the subversions
so A-1 or B-1 cannot be determined from such files?

Cheers
Stig

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Thanks Nick

Very interesting. Can ULTRA pull another white rabbit out of its hat and say anything
regarding WNr 110530?

It might but not in any message that I've transcribed, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

From what I read of your summary above, ULTRA never knew the subversions
so A-1 or B-1 cannot be determined from such files?

Sometimes untis reported sub-types, sometimes not. Sadly you're out of luck this time.