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  #1  
Old 12th July 2017, 11:45
peter monasso peter monasso is offline
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Question ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

Hi All Is there anyone who could provide us with copies from the ORB’s of 56 Sq 402 and 442 Sq of October 6th, 1944 ? On this date P/O Miller & F/S Jackson of 56 Sq RAF, F/L Speare of 402 Sq RCAF and F/L Goodwin of 442 Sq RCAF (Wing 126 RCAF) each claimed to have shot down one Fw 190. On this date Luftwaffe Pilot Lt. Rudolf Wirtgen was shot down with his Fw 190 somewhere in the south of Holland and he is still missing possibly in the wreckage of his a/c. His relatives won’t give up the search for his last resting place which is not known here to give him a proper grave. Maybe the ORB’s give a bit more details about where the allied Pilots of 2nd TAF gained their kills.

Peter Monasso
Dutch Air War Historian
www.crashmuseum.nl
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Old 12th July 2017, 13:06
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

442 Sqn, flying Spitfire IXe, made claims between 1415 and 1545, E of Nijmegen. Combat reports in Air 50/153, microfilm frames 27, 29, 33, 44, 45, 72. A mixture of Bf 109s and FW 190s, dest, prob and dam. In addition one claim for a FW 190 prob at 1505, slightly E of Cleve; Air 50/153-11 and 31.

402 Sqn, flying Spitfire XIVe, made claims at 1520, SE of Nijmegen, for 109s and a 190 dest. Combat reports Air 50/137, frames 71, 77, 157.

403 Sqn, flying Spitfire IXb, made a single claim at 1520, over Nijmegen, for a 109. Air 50/138-174.

56 Sqn, flying Tempest V, made claims at 1530, N of Nijmegen, for 2 190s. Air 50/22-338.

I have not recorded any more accurate map coordinates for these claims. If they are in the text of the combat report, I missed them.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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Old 13th July 2017, 07:17
peter monasso peter monasso is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

Hi Frank,
Thank you very much for this info which certainly is helpful to come closer to find a way out of this mistery.
Regards,
Peter
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Old 13th July 2017, 09:28
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

ORBs of 402 and 442 Sqn are online for free (as all other RCAF squadrons and a bunch of other RCAF units).

402 Sqn
Form 540: http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oo...67/879?r=0&s=2 (and next page)
Form 541: http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oo...67/890?r=0&s=2 (and next pages)
Report in appendice (not much details): http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oo...7/1185?r=0&s=2 (and next page)

442 Sqn
Form 540: http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oo...19/396?r=0&s=1 (and next page)
Form 541: http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oo...19/403?r=0&s=1

The website is very useful for any RCAF query, even if it is hard to find something (but people made indexes and propose them in forum, even if I don't remember where I picked mine, here or on RAF Command forum).
And then once you have the right folder, searching it can be long because all are not in the good order. For example for 402 Sqn ORB is in chronological order while appendices are in anti-chronological orders (I mean reports of October 1944 are before September 1944).
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Old 14th July 2017, 22:05
peter monasso peter monasso is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

Hi Laurent
Thank you very much indeed for this info. This will help us a lot to come closer to a solution. I know the Australian Archive is on line for infos but didn’t know the Canadians are the same for finding WWII documents in their Archive. Wondering when the British and German Archives are so far and follow them? Would be welcome for all the researchers.
Regards,
Peter
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Old 15th July 2017, 15:24
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

By the way South African ORBs are also available for free (through the British National Archives, you have to "buy" them but the price is 0).

British ORB are all online but not for free, and I doubt they will change policy in the future.

As for German, first most unit diaries did not survive the end of the war, and second AFAIK German authorities are rather closing than opening access to WWII sources, to avoid drawing people fascinated with nazism.

On the other hand, unit diaries are also available now online for US Navy units (if you have a fold3 account), Japanese air units and also at least Soviet ones, but for the last two the langage barrier is too high for me.
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Old 21st July 2017, 18:19
Allan125 Allan125 is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

Hello Laurent

Thank you for the links ref 402 Squadron RCAF.

Do you know if it is possible to download the appendices in bulk, or do I have to do it on a page by page basis, as several of the pages that I have looked at cover part of the period that they were part of 125 Wing, my main interest, and they look like a good addition to my records.

cheers

Allan
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Old 21st July 2017, 23:15
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

As far as I know you have to do it page per page.

If you're interested in the appendices, you can buy them here: contrary to the ORB (where you pay for each month), squadron appendices can be bought as a whole file (for the same price as a month F540 OR F541). So rather than spending some hours saving and ordering hundred of pages, you can pay 3.5 pounds and have them all.
The direct link to AIR 27/1779: http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils/r/C2504421
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Old 21st July 2017, 23:17
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

Peter,

You might want to check ADI(K) No. 558/1944 too. Deals with shooting down of Uffz. Küssl of 4./JG 2 on 6.10.1944. he claims he was shot down by Spitfires.

Regards,

John
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Old 21st July 2017, 23:27
Cofian Cofian is offline
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Re: ORB 6th October 1944 56, 402 & 442 Sq.

Peter,

Do you already have an idea which of the alied planes shot down the specific FW190? FYG, I have combat film data showing Pierce (402) fighting a German plane (timed at 15.15), and pilots Towsey, Goodwin, Maclean, Weeks and Keene (all 442) each (?) fighting one at 14.45 hours. Mind you, these are Dutch summer times, is German time, is UK time as well (double summertime).
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