Soviet air victory claims on 17.6.1944 over Perkjärvi (Finnish front)?

[GuerraCivil]

There is a case when a Soviet fighter pilot achieved a rare "double kill" against Finnish fighters in one combat but probably claimed just one and thus "underclaimed".

With this I mean the case of Finnish Bf 109 G2 nr. MT 227 (flown by Sarjamo, Lelv 24) which was shot down by a La-5 of 159 IAP (?) on 17.6.1944 - the debris of MT-227 fell upon the Bf 109 nr. MT-229 (Nissinen, also Lelv 24) which went down as well and both Finnish pilots were killed. One could argue that MT-229 and Nissinen were also lost due to enemy action of La-5 but did the Soviet pilot know that he made it accidentally "two" on that day?

The shooting down of MT-227 occured over Perkjärvi at 6.25 on 17.6.1944 (Finnish records). Any known claims of Soviet fighter units (159 IAP or other) which would fit the by the location, day and clock time? It would be interesting to know the name of Soviet pilot.

[Juha]

According to Keskinen - Stenman Suomen Ilmavoimat VI 1944 Capt Yermakov from159 IAP claimed one 109 over Summa (just N of Perkjärvi) and that was MT-227. I would have been difficult to Yermakov to know that he got two because Sarjamo flew above clouds and Nissinen just under cloudbase.

Juha

Edit: in fact Summa is WNW from Perkjärvi.

[Nikita Egorov]

Yermakov got his kill between 9.25-10.10 (M.T.) east of Summa, followed by Ml.Lt. Medvedev, who claimed one Bf-109 at 9.55-10.40 west of Perkjarvi. Finally at 10.20-10.55 Ml.Lt. Ruzin got another one over Limata.

Further three Bf-109s were credited to 159 IAP at 14.15-15.15 in Humola area.

[Juha]

Hello Nikita
thanks a lot for the info!
IMHO 6.25 is the take-off time and that is in the line of the info from Atso Haapanen's Kesäsota book (Apali, 2006) that MT-229 crashed at 6.50 at Kaukajärvi (probably typo meaning Kaukjärvi), and also with the take-off times he gives. IIRC M.T. is +2 from the Finnish time. The only other Bf 109 loss of the FiAF on that day was MT-419.
1944-06-17, 1155, MT-419, 3./HLeLv34, kapt Olli Puhakka unhurt, SW of Muolaanjärvi/Heinjoki a/f, 3 hvmg hits 1 hit to radiator 2 hits in blades during aircombat with Il-2s (Keskinen-Stenman books say that hit by a fighter, but IMHO the fact that the hits were 12,7 mm hits and the places of the hits suggest hits by a Il-2 rear-gunner) during forced landing onto Heinjoki a/f right u/c retracted, right wingtip bended, blades chipped, destr during transport to repairs on 200644 during the bombing of Elisenvaara station. SOC 300844, from the combat report and the a/c papers. Flight time 26h 20min.

Juha

[Stig Jarlevik]

Juha

In fairness to Keskinen-Stenman there is at least in my book on page 84, a clear indication that Puhakka was shot down by an Il-2 since there is no mentioning of any fighters, even if they were around.

Possibly you refer to earlier books by the duo.

Since Puhakka also claimed an Il-2 in that same combat, it is not impossible he was hit by that same aircraft's rear gunner.

Nikita
Did the Russians really state mission times etc in GMT or is this something you have done in your own records?

B Rgds
Stig

[Juha]

Hello Stig
but in the table on the page 85 the reason is given as hit by a fighter "hävittäjä osui", same in the LeR 3 book. And the plane wasn't wasn't destroyed in the crash landing on the Heinjoki a/f but only suffered some extra damage. Puhakka was informed that the a/f was demolized and prepared to a wheels-up landing but during his approach noticed that there was still room for a normal landing and selected wheels down but the right undercarriage leg didn't have enough time to lock down properly and retracted near the end of the landing run but the plane was still entirely repairable and was loaded onto raiway carriage. And yes, according to Puhakka his plane was hit by the gunner of the Il-2 he claimed. That's according to his report to the investication board which studied the crash landing.

PS: Nikita's times are Moscow times which are normally +3 GMT and the Finnish time was +2 GMT (Finns used Summer time only in 1942 and then again from late 80s), it seems that the SU used summer time, so there seems to be one hour difference between the crash time of MT-229 and Capt Yermakov's claim time if the SU didn't use a double summer time during the war.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Ha, ha Juha

You are one step ahead of me, since I don't understand Finnish...
Rather odd to state that in the table unless they simply have copied previously written text. Too easily done I guess.

However the text on page 84 (the English one I quickly add ) at least to me indicate both authors also believe in your Il-2 scenario.

Regarding the times, yes I always felt time to be very important, hence my request to Nikita for further details. Thanks for the explanation regarding which time he is talking about. Just like you it makes me even more puzzled.

Nikita?

B Rgds
Stig

[GuerraCivil]

Thanks for the info. I found some further info on Yermakov. He had quite interesting career:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/soviet_yermakov.htm
http://www.cieldegloire.com/015_yermakov_d_v.php

The differences of clock times are quite common is my impression and I´m not sure how precise pilots were with clock times in their combat reports - these may have been very rough estimates (did they have time to watch the clock during the combat and remember it exactly?). Also locations can differ more or less when referring the same combat by both sides. My impression is that it is very rare to find combat reports of both sides corresponding 100 % with each other.

But if I have understood correctly the shooting down of Sarjamo (+ accidental loss of Nissinen) on 17.6.1944 can be credited to 159 IAP although likely candidates are 2-3: Dimitri Yermakov or Medvedev (first name?) and perhaps even Anatoli (?) Ruzin.

[Juha]

On Puhakka's crash landing at Heinjoki a/f, the time was 12.00 according to his combat record and Haapanen's book but 12.30 according to the accident investigation board report. And who hit his MT-419? As I wrote according to his report to the accident investigation board the rear gunner of the Il he shot down but according to his combat report he first shot down one Il-2 and then attacked others but in spite of long bursts got no additional kills and one of the rear gunners of those other Il-2s hit his plane. One of those cases where extra info only complicates the case.

According to Heimo Lampi, who seems to be the only one who saw the collision of MT-227 and MT-229 it happened near the end of the combat. He landed at 7.40 according to his log book. Lampi had claimed one La-5 before the collision and turned back almost immediately after the collision when the ground control told him that others were already returning. So it seems that the collision happened later than at 6.50. The distance between Perkjärvi and the Lappeenranta a/f (the base of the HLeLv 24 at that time) was appr. 85 km, so maybe the correct collision time was c. at 7.20 - 7.30. So not so much off from the Capt Yermakov's claim time.


Hello GC
the Finns usually gave t/o and landing times, which they probably got from the flight control.

Juha

[Juha]

The sources I have used:
the a/c papers of MT-419.
Olli Puhakka’s combat report of the midday of 17 June 1944.
Heimo Lampi’s combat report of the morning of 17 June 1944.

Haapanen, Atso, Kesäsota: Suomen ilmavoimien sotalennot kesällä 1944 (Tampere: Apali, 2006).
Lampi Heimo, Kenttäpostia Kannakselta (Kirjapaja: Helsinki, 1994). In the book there are copies of the pages
of Lampi’s logbook between 3 June and 15 September 1944.
Lampi Heimo – Turkka, Yrjö, Viimeiset syöksykierteet (Porvoo: Werner Söderström Osakeyhtiö, 1967).