Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11th February 2014, 08:46
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

Hello all,
can somebody tell me if the German aerial victories against the Wellington formations are somewhere documented with place, time etc ?

Where can we find the detailed (and all!) British losses of this raid ?

Thanks and best regards,
Marius
  #2  
Old 11th February 2014, 09:56
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,477
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

I believe that a book has been written on this plus numerous articles. RAF losses are fully detailed in a Bill Chorley's Bomber Command Losses Vol 1

Last edited by Chris Goss; 11th February 2014 at 10:54.
  #3  
Old 11th February 2014, 10:49
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

In Chorkey`s Bomber Command Losses Vol.1 you will find 12 losses only. But what about the rest ? Further 3 or even 6 aircraft crashed on return to England.
Who published the complete toll of losses ?
  #4  
Old 11th February 2014, 10:53
ju55dk's Avatar
ju55dk ju55dk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 706
ju55dk
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

"But what about the rest ? Further 3 or even 6 aircraft crashed on return to England."

Where does this information comes from?

Junker
  #5  
Old 11th February 2014, 12:53
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

For example:

J.Prien - Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 Teil 1, page 133.
12 failed to return + 8 or more crashed/forcelanded.

C.Shores - Fledgling Eagles, page 140.
11+1 + 6 more crashed/forcelanded reaching English coast.

Regards,
  #6  
Old 11th February 2014, 13:44
ju55dk's Avatar
ju55dk ju55dk is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 706
ju55dk
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

Sadly both are secondary sources. Priens JG 77 have another unsourced claim, concerning the 13 august 1940 attack on Aalborg. Claiming that twice the number attacked, wich is simply untrue!

Junker
  #7  
Old 11th February 2014, 14:12
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

Nevertheless I think the authors used relevant sources...
By the way, it is most propable the RAF lost much more aircraft crashed or forcelanded on England soil then only the 12 which completely failed to return - means crashed into the North Sea.

I don`t think there is something untrue done by above authors. More, the British point of view seems to be much problematic even now, 75 years after the battle.
I only wrote about the losses of Squadrons 9,37,38 & 149 passing Heligoland. But it is sure pilots of 2./ZG 76 (among others) attacked the second formation of Wellingtons, which - believing some authors - was not existent.(!?)

Regards,
  #8  
Old 11th February 2014, 15:13
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 165
Andrei Demjanko is on a distinguished road
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

Aircraft force-landed not always means 'aircraft crash-landed' on return to base or elswere. It also means that aircraft not returned to the aerodrome, which was the unit's base, and landed on another airfield due to fuel situation, weather, battle damage, whatewer reason.

Speaking of 18 December 1939 I have data only for 9 Sqn. Of nine aircraft from this unit participating, only two returned to base at Honington. Five aircraft of the unit were lost in this operation. Two of their Wellingtons were damaged in aerial combat, one landed on return at North Coates and another landed at Sutton Bridge, the latter aircraft with two wounded crewmen aboard. These two aircraft are certainly amongst those, mentioned by Shores and Prien
__________________
Regards,
Andrei
  #9  
Old 11th February 2014, 23:12
BigWeeker BigWeeker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 50
BigWeeker is on a distinguished road
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

Suggest people read Robin Holmes's "The Battle Of Heligoland Bight" All requested details contained therein....
BW
  #10  
Old 11th February 2014, 23:22
Marius Marius is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Marius is on a distinguished road
Re: Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

Well, four Squadrons flew in along Heligoland with 22 aircraft. Besides the 9 Sqd it is still possible several Wellingtons did not return to their bases as mean Shores &r Prien.

Much more interesting is the second formation with similar strenght of Wellingtons which flew partially over ground from the west appr. half an hour later. I am still waiting for the Holme`s book. But I heard he wrote about the Heligoland formation only. (?)
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Identity Red Air Force losses to German night fighters SE Europe 1944? Theo Boiten Allied and Soviet Air Forces 14 21st October 2014 22:09
German Losses after 9th AF strafing April 5, 1944 on French airdrome Henofred Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 26 1st December 2013 11:20
Searching more info on two German losses, March 1941 Laurent Rizzotti Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 8 1st July 2011 10:22
German losses 22 March 1943 in Kharkhov area Laurent Rizzotti Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 24th March 2010 11:47
Looking for links about German a/c Losses in Balkan campaign MB Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 7th January 2005 18:47


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net