Bf.109G-8 vs Caproni 313(S-16) Swedich

[Stig Jarlevik]

Kari

Partly correct.
No over wing insignias were carried until appx summer 1944 when they were applied also to the upper surface.
Reason was no doubt the losses suffered previously in May.

Cheers
Stig

[Juha]

Hello Stig
what was the logic behind that practice? Many Soviet twin-engine aircraft also lacked the over wing national insignia, so the practice made Swedish planes more similar to Soviet ones. One would think that Swedes would have tried to be discerned from the combatants when they flied over areas used by both combatants, not to look like one of the combatants.

Juha

[Stig Jarlevik]

Good question Juha

At this point I don't know! I never really been a camouflage and marking enthusiast, so I have not delved any deeper into why a certain stand was adopted.

From what I have gathered the camouflage originated in Italy and most likely was the one the French had wanted and was not changed upon arrival to Sweden. If the paint needed to be changed or the aircraft were repainted Swedish substitute colours were used.

Your reference to being more look-a-like to Soviet aircraft at the time was probably something the SwAF was not aware of.

Since these Swedish long-range reconnaissance flights very often brought the aircraft perilously very close to areas where enemy aircraft was a reality perhaps low visibility was more paramount than showing the three crowns?

But with hindsight I agree, it was both dangerous and perhaps even foolish.
Then on the other hand, we don't know what the end result would have been even if over wing markings had been used....

Cheers
Stig

[Juha]

Hello Stig
thanks for answering. I’m not marking specialist either and of course we don’t know if clearer national markings would have made any difference. But e.g. Dutch even gave up their cockade in October 1939 and began use the large black lined orange triangle instead.

Juha

[Stig Jarlevik]

Indeed Juha

Holland probably felt themselves extremely threatened after the outbreak of WW 2 and probably did not want to give the Germans a single chance to claim they thought the Dutch were Allied aircraft due to the circular form of the old marking.

Sweden probably felt safer in 1939, after all we would have been very much a 'side show'. All that changed pretty fast of course in April 1940, but that was another story...

Cheers
Stig

[sveahk]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

All

From the forum I notice there is a Swedish speaking Swiss Gentlemen who has done research down in Freiburg. Among documents relating to Naval stuff he has located some papers which more or less conclusively clinch Fw Paul Schalk to the two shoot downs of S 16A 3335 and 3304.

Cheers
Stig

Being the "Gentleman"in question, I'd like to give some more information regarding this incident over the Baltic sea.

Since april 1944 the "Seekommandant Libau" registered with some irritation regularly performed enemy flights outside the Libau coast - each day the same hours and more or less the same route. They asked for help and got it from Luftflottenkommando 1 which sent a "Tag-Jagdschwarm" II./JG 5 to Libau-Grobin, airfields in Latvia. Possibly only three pilots were sent - Oblt. Theo Weissenberger, Fw Paul Schalk and Uffz Zacharias.(App 1)

Then, as we've seen, on the 14 and 15 of May the two swedish Capronis were shot down by Paul Schalk - clearly shown in the naval documents I found in Freiburg/Brsg.

Then we have this national markings thing. Paul Schalk wrote in his first report and later by the hearing, that he attacked from behind and underneath, but mentioned only the markings on the body of the Caproni: Three yellow crowns on blue and a big white 14 on the tail fin. Nothing about wing markings.

In the belief that this must be a russian aircraft with false national markings, he didn't hesitate to shoot it down...and with the same belief he also took down the Caproni the following day - all the more as the "enemy" planes moved as if they were trying to escape...! By the hearing a couple of days later - at a time when they all knew those were swedish planes - Schalk came up with some other excuses, a.o. he himself knew the swedish markings should have been three blue crowns on white ground...!

Anyway he got away with it in the end, no problems...

Btw, the german Luftwaffenkommando tried to block the news of the second Caproni shooting. It was to be seen as a spy thing. "Don't tell the Swedes anything about (our involvement)"!!(App 2)

Hans K

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Hans for confirming on this forum as well your findings.

Are you still convinced there is an error in the Swedish interrogation back in 1945 and that was the reason the wrong individual was credited with the shoot down? Been thinking about it now and then and I find that theory quite plausible.

Cheers
Stig

[Mikael Olrog]

Thanks for sharing do documents Hans, interesting findings.

[Juha]

Hello Hans
Thanks for the extra interesting info!

Juha

[sveahk]

First, thanks for the nice words Stig, Mikael and Juha...

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Are you still convinced there is an error in the Swedish interrogation back in 1945 and that was the reason the wrong individual was credited with the shoot down? Been thinking about it now and then and I find that theory quite plausible.

Cheers
Stig

I'll try to answer that.

We've here a unique possibility, IMW, to compare the original "Gefechtsbericht" (seen below in the thumbnail section)with what the German authorities put together, and some time after the "incident" gave to the Swedish flight attaché in Berlin. A finely doctored report to a, at that time, not so friendly "neutral" nation...

The Swedish author Bo Widfeldt - who I guess is not totally unknown for many here in this forum - got the chance to see this report, translated it into Swedish and put it in his book "In Memoriam" (Swedish losses within the Swedish Air Force). I refrain from copying it here - you've to believe me when I compare it with the original "Gefechtsbericht"...
The report for the Swedes, as seen in that book, looks well translated from German so I want to point out some discrepancies to the original report given and signed by the one pilot who did all the shooting-downs of the Capronis, Feldwebel Paul Schalk.

The most important difference is Schalk reporting he attacked from behind and beneath, while in the "Swedish" version the attack came from behind and above. Why so important? Because, as we've seen, the Swedish Caproni did'nt have any national markings on the upper side of the wings...and that sort of gave the German pilot Carte Blanche to attack a possibly Russian aircraft...!

At least it sounded much better on the report to the Swedes...

Then, all the German names were omitted in the censored report: The Jägerleit-Offz. Off Jung was not mentioned, the second pilot, Uffz Zacharias was not mentioned - and most important, the name of Fw Paul Schalk is nowhere to be seen.

Instead the Swedes find "Oberfeldwebel Gerhard Frenzel aus Plauen" at the end of the Swedish report.

And the second "kill" was of course denied by the Germans and not even mentioned...

Now, why did the Germans put Frenzel there instead of Paul Schalk? We can only speculate for now. Two possibilities as I see it: The few pilots belonging to II.JG5, Jagdkommando Libau came from Finland in sort of a secret mission, it shouldn't be common knowledge - for some reason - that they existed at that place...and that time. Ergo, they were not to be mentioned - somebody else who anyway was stationed in that area had to put his name on the report...Gerhard Frenzel.

Or, Schalk was already gone, somebody in the very German manner had to sign off on the report...Gerhard Frenzel happened to be there...

Anyway, Frenzel was most certainly aware of the Swedish report and the content, so when he came to Sweden on the 8th off May 1945, he confirmed that it was his signature on that paper. So, I don't believe there was any error from the Swedish authorities - they just got a confirmation what they saw at the end of the "faked" German report.

I've been trying for some time to get hold of the Widfeldt documents, perhaps they we'll enlighten us - or not...

Hans K