Photos Caproni

[Stig Jarlevik]

I have no Key account and can't recall anything by the Gentleman in question.
His unit details are already known

Main problem it seems is that each new author says something different without saying what
they base their difference upon.

There are too few identifiable photos around (for those who can see the difference)

What we can see are three different number ranges

I have No 11, 31, 36 (all CEP)
I have No 113, 132 (all CAP)
I have No 502 (CAP)
(I have possibly more photo evidence)

Any author really needs to fit that into the equation, or come up with a quoted document
that proves their point.

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


Well this discussion has been useful. Searching further I note that Albin Denis has a page dedicated to the french Capronis which I had not earlier noticed written by a Jean Besnard.


http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...ns_Caproni.htm



The headline with regard to the SFA numbers of french built machines is as follows


CEP 1 B2 Nos 1-60
CEP 2 B2 Nos 101-30


The page seems reasonably sourced.


This however,leaves us with the Italian Capronis.Can we definitely say that they received SFA numbers at all?



Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Interesting Clint

I wasn't aware of that page either.

But I find the initial parts somewhat sloppy and simplified. To call the Bristol-Coanda monoplanes
a "fighter" is just one of the oddities stated. Caproni never built any Bristol aircraft on licence.
Due to the two imported and assembled Bristol-Coanda by Caproni never made it at the trial also ment
the contract for further Bristols were canx. However that was only part of Caproni's problems.
I would say the liquidation of his company later in 1913 was the usual one, poor cash flew.
Total production of the Ca.1 about 1800? Give me a break. Alegi lists the total Italian production
of all the Ca.1 - Ca.3 as 659 of which the Ca.1 was 179!! Alegi's number also include some 200 Ca.3 built
postwar. The number of Ca.3 built up to late 1918 was 270

I also doubt the total Italian production of the Ca.5, given as 664.

Denis initial ramblings about the first flight of the H-P O/100 is way off.
Probably he is talking about 1915 and not 1914 since the ff of the O/400 was on 17 Dec 1915.

How does Denis explain the photo of a CAP 2 with No 132 visible? When I downloaded it, it was
said to be an Italian Ca.3 but now I am hesitant.

The problem of course is to see the difference between a CAP and CEP. The only certain way for me
is to see what it says on the aeroplane itself.
Then how do you see the difference between a CEP 1/CAP 1 and a CEP 2/CAP 2? With all the engine changes
going on a sort of "we take what we can get" situation arose and I am not the man to see all the
differences
Also since there is never any clear line drawn between the CAP/CEP 1 and CAP/CEP 2 on any photo
that I can see, at least I have a tremedous problem to see any difference.
All it says is CAP or CEP

At least the article confirmed my suspicion that no Ca.5 were built in France.
Five imported ones sounds reasonable.

Bottom line, to me, is that whatever number of the Ca.1 and Ca.3 imported by the French must
be included in the total somewhere.
We only have two number ranges. No 1 and up and No 101 and up unless we
take the bold step to say No 1 to at least 132

Phew, that was long....
Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hello Stig,


I think we'd be in a much stronger position to discuss the Italian built Capronis operated by France if Jean Besnard had also contributed to Albin Denis' page on CAP 130.


Let me make a suggestion and this could be completely wrong. Might it not be the case that the CAP 1 & CAP 2 machines did not receive a SFA number at all being foreign built.Thus removing the need to account for putative SFA numbers.



Followup question did the initial British built Sopwith 1.5 Strutters receive a SFA Number? D&S have the British serials,but no mention of SFA numbers. Likewise the two Short 184 retained their RNAS serials. Note,the above is far from conclusive.Is the No.502 for the Ca.5 definitely proven? I bet I'm overlooking something really obvious. So one way of ruling out my suggestion,are other foreign built machines known to have received SFA numbers?



Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Yes I thought about that possibility Clint but rather dismissed it since the French designated the
Italian built aircraft as CAP.1 or CAP.2

The CAP.3 (Ca.5) obviously got SFA numbers (I send over the best photo I have of No 502 to you)

But you could well be right that the French never assigned any SFA numbers to the Italian imported Ca.1 and 3s
Heaven knows how the military minds worked back then

Main problems as I see it, besides too little remaining documents, are:
a) How many Ca.1 and Ca.3 were imported to France?
If the number was big, why are there no photos of them?
b) Why were so many CEP 1 built compared to CEP 2? Soltan/Davila claims the CEP 1 was under-
powered and not much favoured while in Italy the type seems to have been quite liked.
c) Alegi claims 89 were built in France. The article above says 90 but does not account for the
No 132
d) Why did the No 1 - 60 (sic) carry these numbers on the fin while No 101 - 132 carried them on
the fuselage?

Interesting topic this one Clint!!

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


Thanks for the photo. Very clear. This does not help my theory.



Another 'main problem is that with the exception of the CAP.3 there are,unlike other french manufactured aircraft,just to pick an example,the SOP 1, no type identification on the rudder. If it actually stated CAP 2 B2 how much simpler matters would be.


The lack of photos is certainly suggestive isn't it?


I think that based on the information that we have now seen,the underpowered CEP 1B2 were replaced by higher powered CEP 1B2, see the Jean Besnard piece for Albin Denis.


The beginning of ther elvant paragraph being


Cet avion est désormais dénommé dans l'aéronautique militaire française CEP 1 B2 puis 1 Bn2, quand son utilisation exclusivement nocturne est décidée. Equipé au départ de deux moteurs le Rhône de 80 hp et un de 100 hp, la version définitive est motorisée avec deux moteurs latéraux le Rhône 9C et 9J de 80 hp et un moteur entral propulsif Canton Unné P 9 de 130 hp.



So it seems that D& S are mistaken with their information. Incidentally the same information is still contained in vol.2 of Davilla's book for Aeronaut.Thus only the first few were underpowered.Not all.



So 90 machines of which 60 CEP 1 B2 and 30 CEP B2 built in France


Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo again CLint

I looked in the SHAA Les Escadrilles book and saw that they had a very interesting list
of aircraft under Esc 115 (actually made a table out of that) Unfortunately there is nothing
similar under Esc 130. At least CEP No 1 - 60 and No 101 - 126 are confirmed

Only one aircraft is stated in details as CEP 2 and that is No 20 in Jan 1917. All others are only
referred to as CEP.

What I don't understand is why the two units were redesignated from CEP 115/130 to CAP 115 (Oct 17)
and CAP 130 (Nov 17) if they never used any CAPs but only CEP?

The engines is total mish mash to me. It seems they used whatever engines they could lay their
hand on between 80 - 160hp. They probably re-engined earlier aircraft with higher hp engines when
available.

When doing so didn't they automatically create a CAP 2 instead of a CAP 1 or should we
call them CAP.1Bis?

Soon bedtime for me. Maybe I wake up tomorrow with a glimmering idea? That would be the day....

Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Well Stig,


I believe we've gone as far as we can go on French operated, Italian built Capronis until further information,documentation or photos with SFA numbers outside those already alloted for CEP machines. As things stand we definitely appear to have aircraft,but even more definitely no known serials.


Here are some photos recently posted on ebay showing that it was in fact possible to put serials on your Capronis,albeit the sellers captions are a bit off with regard to types of Caproni shown


https://www.ebay.it/sch/i.html?_dkr=...aproni&_sop=10



Regards,


Clint