Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21st September 2018, 13:40
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Hello, everyone!

I'm interested in information about Karl-Heinz Nebel, a pilot of 9./JG51. On a several sites about German aces it is stated that he had 14 kills.
But in excel file with luftwaffe_kills_list I’ve counted only 12 victories. He made his first kill on 03.12.1942, so he took part into war a long time and was a very experienced pilot, but the overall list of victories is not very large? I understand that it is normal, but maybe it was so because he flew mainly as a kachmarek?

According to kills list, his 12th victory was Pe-2 (20.10.1944, 14:35 in 25444). Seems that it was Pe-2 (commander subleut. Igolkin) from 58 BAP of 276 BAD which was shouted down at that day in the district of Shtaluponnen, East Prussia. Time of kill and lost reports equal to +\- 5 min.
Also, according to the Lynn Ritger monograph “
The Messerschmitt Bf 109Part 2”, 22.10.1944 Nebel’s Bf 109G-6 “yellow 3+|” (WNr 441532) was shot down and he bailed with wounds.

Does anyone have photos of Karl-Heinz as well as information about his military biography and further fate? Is the information from Ritger correct about his downfall? Did he fly after that?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st September 2018, 15:08
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 2,105
John Beaman is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

ignore
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st September 2018, 18:54
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Why? What does it mean?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 22nd September 2018, 10:51
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 873
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Hi ZhekaB

Nebel was born on 6th December 1920. The only source for his claims is the mikrofilms which fade out for JG 51 during December 1944. Therefore past that date he may have claimed more, but unless a new source is acquired like his last flugbuch a total of fourteen is really unsubstantiated . The twelve on the mikrofilms, all with 9./JG 51 are as follows:-

3rd December 1942 Il-2 1345 hrs Nr.1
1st July 1943 U-2 30km ESE Zmiyekka 0415 hrs Nr.2
3rd July 1943 Il-4 20km E Zalegoschch 1546 hrs Nr.3
12th July 1943 La-5 20km E Zalegoschch 0555 hrs Nr.4
13th July 1943 LaGG-3 25km SE Zalegoschch 1258 hrs Nr.5
30th July 1943 Il-2 10km SE Naryschkino 1352 hrs Nr.6
17th September 1943 Jak-9 S Jelnja 0727 hrs Nr.7
22nd October 1943 Jak-7 NW Lojew 1105 hrs Nr.8
21st February 1944 Jak-7 5km S Rogatschew 1540 hrs Nr.9
30th April 1944 Jak-7 10km S Lubomi 1020 hrs Nr.10
25th June 1944 La-5 raum Paritschi 0737 hrs Nr.11
20th October 1944 Pe-2 20km NE Trakehnen 1435 hrs Nr.12

He survived the war, but I have not been able to find a date of death. Hey hopefully he's still alive.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 22nd September 2018, 11:47
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 697
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Together with Ashley Lamb, I interviewed him in 2003-2004.

He settled here in Australia post-war and became a master builder, spent his retirement in a house outside Sydney that he had built himself.

He was taken POW in hospital Koethen at the end of the war, having not recovered from his wound by that stage.

His supposed tally of 14 is "explained" by a story that he took a Bf109 up on a lone test flight and was pursued by two Yaks. He sought cover by diving into a cloud. As he came out the other side the two Yaks were spinning earthward having collided within the cloud. There was a painting made of the event but it no longer shows up on google. The original was displayed in his living room along with another that depicted his first victory (over an IL-2 as demonstrated by Johannes)

So, as previously stated, he did not claim any more victories because October was around the time that he was wounded

He passed away in 2008, I do not know the exact date
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 23rd September 2018, 21:32
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Thanks for the interesting information, Johannes and Nick. Nick, could you remind, did Carl-Heinz tell any details of his last victory and the moment of his shooting down? Did he mostly flew at the end of the war as a leader or a wingman?
And maybe someone know where I can find a picture of Karl-Heinz?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24th September 2018, 15:09
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 697
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

The one victory he spoke the most of was his first. It was on his 6th combat mission and his strongest memory of air combat was attacking IL-2s or Zementbomber as he called them.
He said he was an acting Staffelkapitaen at the time, with Brendel as Gruppenkommandeur. He blamed Brendel for getting him shot down, the impression we got was that he respected Brendel's abilities as a pilot per se but not as a leader
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25th September 2018, 09:47
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 873
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Hi Nick

Did Nebel tell you the nature of his wounds/injuries from 22nd October 1944. Loss records state that he baled-out of his Bf109 injured. Could have been injured baling-out, or on landing, as the injuries seem severe could be that he was in fact wounded rather than injured.
Whatever Brendel's leader abilities were, he was the top Il-2 killer, love to get a copy of his flugbuch for 1945 information, but ninety+ zementbomber is quite a feat.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25th September 2018, 11:24
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 697
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Hi Johannes,

Just that he was wounded in the thigh and that he caught splinters from the Flak round.

As for Brendel, if anyone can help to build on this, I'd be grateful:

Joachim Brendel

6.7.42/1925 MiG-3 Was this Lt. Stepan Ivanovich Tsarevskiy of 27 IAP KIA this date?

9.7.42/0420 MiG-3 Was this from 519 IAP? Lt. Nikolay Alexandrovich Smirnov (AE CO) KIA this date

18.1.43/0802, 0805 and 0809 3 x Pe-2s 2nd Eskadrilya, 202 BAP, 263 BAD, 1 BAK, 3 VA. Six losses: No. 6/115 of Lt. M V Orlov KIA, Lt. P G Slobodyan and Serzhant S I Filonchik baled out POW; crew of Serzhants P A Teplishchev, A I Golovlev and S E Vilkov; No.3/104 (Tail No.15) of Lt. B S Kardapoltsev, Mladshiy Leitenant A K Bondarenko and Serzhant A I Kozhbakov all baled out over Lake Karataj, one crewmen died on the way down and the others were KIA on the ground (in a gun battle with Germans trying to take them POW?) crew of Lt. Aleksandr Vasilyevich Shemyakin, Lt. N G Prikhodko Serzhant V F Pavlov (fate not specified) No. 19/104 (Tail No.18) of Serzhant A P Sozinov, Lt. T M Shapovalov and Serzhant V K Kalinichenko at least one crewman apparently evaded capture, other two KIA; crew of Serzhant Viktor Viktorovich Chirov, Ml. Lt. V T Gaevsky and Serzhant F I Mikheev (Jennewein claimed 5 as well)

9.3.43/0727 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. This was likely Mayor Prokorov as he was first to go down. Bellylanded 8 km south of Zalegoshch, he returned to his unit on the 13.3.43

9.3.43/0732 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. Other losses were S-t. Mikhail Aleksandrovich Kuznetsov, St. S-t. Vasiliy Ivanovich Ivlev, S-t. Egor Egorovich Ekimov and S-t. Aleksandr Vasil'evich Pomazkin all MIA (Klaus Dietrich claimed one and Guenther Schack claimed two)

6.5.43/1330 IL-2 Sturmovik 41 ShAP, 299 ShAD. 15 losses (remainder to flak, only one crew returned) (Herbert Epphardt claimed one, Josef Jennewein claimed 5)

7.5.43/0505 and 0515 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 58 and 79 GShAP, 2 GShAD (only 1 aircraft returned: Kapt Parshin and Snr Sgt Matveev crashed near Novosil). Known losses include Lt. Mingalev of 79 ShAP. Greatest losses to fighters appears to have been by 58 GShAP (Epphardt and Bareuther claimed two each)

28.5.43/1124 La-5 Known to be engaged against 160 IAP. I am awaiting further details on this one

8.6.43/1911 and 1912 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk sector (Loeber, Josten and Ziegenfuss also claimed)

10.6.43/1937 Yak-1 122 IAP, two losses: Maj. Tzagojko damaged, bellylanded behind German lines and Mladshiy Leytenant Nepokrytov MIA/KIA. Additionally 162 IAP lost Starshin Seluka MIA/KIA as well. (These three losses are accounted for by Brendel, Schwarz and Haase’s claims)

6.7.43/0539 Boston III 8 GBAP, 57 BAP, 745 BAP/221 BAD of 16 VA (Central Front). 16 losses for the day 8 GBAP lost 7, 745 BAP lost 6 and 57 BAP lost 3 Bostons all up. 6 are attributed to fighters

7.7.43/0820 Boston III 745 BAP lost 3 Bostons this day and this was almost certainly one of them

9.7.43/0541 and 0544 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 299 ShAD. Ml.Lt. Gerasim Petrovich Zadorozhnyy was attacked by 7 Fw190s and there were other losses (I am awaiting further details…)

15.9.43/1705 Yak-9 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. Day's losses include Lt. Dmitriy Kudryavtsev of 86 GIAP KIA , Ml.Lt. Yurii Vasilievich Gromov of 263 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA. 149 IAP lost Evgenii Nikolaevich Klimov KIA (plenty of scope for this one to be a legitimate victory, therefore…)

17.9.43/1043 Pe-2 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date (possibly by Brendel, Josten or Lindner)

12.10.43/1120 Yak-9 Morning's Yak-9 losses in Orsha sector include Ivan Chernii of 18 GIAP, 303 IAD, 1VA baled out after combat with Fw190s but KIA by German infantry (Brendel, Vechtel or Grumme likely shot him down)

13.10.43/0855 Pe-2 128 GBAP. 4 losses: Gv.Ml.Lt. Aleksey Pavlovich Simenskoy safe and Gds. St. Lt. Ivan Isaevich Prokorenko MIA (both attributed to Flak), Gv.Lts. Pavel Sergeevich Kukushkin (forcelanded WIA after fighter attack, POW a year later) and Alexei Kuzmich Barinov (POW, escaped 1944)

24.6.44/1036 IL-2 Sturmovik mH (Bareuther claimed one as well) 946 ShAP, 196 ShAD, 4 ShAK, 16 VA had an encounter with Fw190s this date, claiming one shot down for no losses. Do these claims actually pertain to that encounter?

30.6.44/1750 La-5 ("LaGG-5") Possibly 67 GIAP, 273 IAD, 6 IAK. Lt. V P Alekseev forcelanded WIA (Losigkeit and Wever also claimed La-5s during the course of the day, I haven’t managed to pin down the loss to a specific claim yet)

29.7.44/1005 Yak-9 Possibly Kapitan Vladimir Gerogievich Shchegolev (14 kills + 3 shared), HSU, OL, 3 x ORB and OPW 2nd Class of 162 IAP, KIA over Bialystok

14.8.44/1722 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly Lt. Fyodor Ivanovich Rytov and Serzhant Andrey Egorovich Ershov of 618 ShAP, KIA near Augustow (Loeffler and Eichel-Streiber also claimed during the course of the day and again, I cannot pin the loss to a claim yet…)

20.8.44/1242 IL-2 Sturmovik mH The day’s combats are a little confusing here as well: 570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date
25.8.44/0714 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly 658 ShAP, 299 ShAD. Kapitan I P Smyshlyaka shot down and Mladshiy Leytenant N V Vichkapov damaged but made it home over Vyshkuva area. (Heinz Busse also claimed)

22.9.44/1027 A-20 Boston III 1 GMTAP VVS-KBF. Losses include St.Lt. Mark Ivanovich Zhilenkov KIA, Lt. Aleksandr Fedorovich Baranov, Lt. Thepermiaks (?), Gv.Ml.Lt. Mikhail Petrovich Permyakov and Ml.Lt. Sergei Petrovich Pudov all KIA (there were 4 other claims…)

20.2.45 Yak-3 Said to be from Groupe Normandie-Niemen, 1 VA. Lieutenant Pierre Bleton. POW, escaped and returned
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 27th September 2018, 10:00
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 873
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Karl-Heinz Nebel, III./JG 51

Hi Nick

Many thanks for the details of his wounds.

With Brendel can't be sure of most of his 1945 claims as mikrofilms do not cover this period, however KBT papers have a few claims for him that they number.
I think that his flugbuch probably survives somewhere, hopefully it will show itself one day.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S Günther Josten was the third highest scoring Il-2 killer, and I do have ALL his claims if your interested.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kg51 "edelweiss" the complete history of kg 51 in world war ii". Mike H Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 14 8th February 2015 12:24
CO list of Schlacht Gruppen, 39-45 - looking for assistance. Evgeny Velichko Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 15 15th November 2013 12:29
I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43 Evgeny Velichko Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 9 4th August 2013 22:20
Claims and losses JG51 AreKal Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 24th July 2011 07:56
Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace? Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 25th August 2008 03:37


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net