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Old 25th December 2019, 19:09
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Dear Nick,
Thank you very much for your answer. I'm not obsessed, but it's true that I'm sorry for the poor guys (no matter on which side they were, actually) and I'm glad they didn't have to be killed and the destruction of the aircraft was what mattered. I admit I didn't read the post about Hartmann's claims very carefully. Unfortunately, the fact of shooting down a plane is called a 'kill' (even in the title, we have a hundred or more air kills).
Best regards,
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Old 25th December 2019, 20:08
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Originally Posted by Teresa Maria View Post
Unfortunately, the fact of shooting down a plane is called a 'kill'
Probably deriving from the British officer classes' love of shooting wild birds. They used the same term for bringing down planes as they did for grouse and pheasant. Squadron diarists referred to a day's total victories as "the bag", another shooting term. It was easier to concentrate on the fate of the enemy machine and not think about the fate of the pilot
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Old 25th December 2019, 20:09
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

As well as destroying aircraft it is about killing, wounding or capturing aircrew

Concentrating on loss of aircraft is a polite fig leaf for the real business

Some said that they shot in a way that would allow the crew to escape, I accept that some did that, particularly over their own territory. A damn silly thing to do over enemy territory where they will be back in the air tomorrow trying to kill you again

Lets continue to concentrate on who shot what machine down, its so much nicer this way

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Old 25th December 2019, 20:40
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Originally Posted by MW Giles View Post
Concentrating on loss of aircraft is a polite fig leaf for the real business.

My point exactly.
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Old 26th December 2019, 01:36
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Yes indeed,
Let's move back to the aces claims. Here's a big update on Barkhorn for Leon Venter and others who want to know about their actual opponents. Updated research courtesy of Ivan Lavrinenko in this instance:

Gerhard Barkhorn’s known victims and overclaims

5th claim
IL-2 Sturmovik ("V-11")
N of Lake Ilmen/Staraya Russa sector
Schumann and Brauer claimed as well
Legitimate victory: 243 ShAP. 3 out of 6 lost in an attack on Staraya Russa. Crew details pending

6th and 7th claims
I-153 "Tchaika"
MiG ("I-18")
own a/f: Spasskaja Polist
13 KOAE? Lts. G.I.Monahov, Yakov Ivanovich Ehin KIA and Lt. Konstantin Sergeyevich Seldyakov KIA (one listing has the latter two serving with 12 OIAE). 13 IAP lost Ml.Lt. Grigory Grigorievich Karasev listed KIA

10th claim
I-16 or MiG-1 (I-61)
Day's MiG losses to fighters include 180 IAP's Leitenant Sergei Vasilievich Makarov, forcelanded in German territory and rescued piggyback style. Solechnogorsk, Klin area (NW of Moscow). 188 IAP lost Serzhant Vasily Vasilievich Sanukov KIA

17th claim
NE of Petrovskaya @ 100m.
223 BAD, 2 VA. Losses believed to be in excess of 16 crews. Includes Divison CO Podpolkovnik I K Kosenko and Polkovnik Yuri N Gorbko HSU plus Lt. Ivan Sirko all KIA. 24 BBAP (Gorbko's unit) alone lost 6 Pe-2s
Possibilities also include crew of St.Lt. Vladimir Yakovlevich Polvnikov all MIA, plus gunner Ml.Serzh Nikolay Vasilyevich Anyushev of 723 BAD, MIA

20th claim
Kupyansk sector
Possibly 170 IAP, 217 IAD, 4 VA. Ml.Lt. Vasily Pimenovich Bajdov KIA
Helmut Adam also claimed

34th claim
Yak-1 ("LaGG-3")
Baluyki area
Helmut Adam also claimed at 0613
Two claims for No.2968 of 273 IAP/31 GIAP. Lt. Mikhail Garam WIA (burns to left hand and face)
(slight overclaim)

36th claim
DB-7 Boston
own a/f: Beyikolodey
794 BAP, 221 BAD. 6 total losses including crew of Lt. Aleksey Stepanovich Cherkashenko (AE CO) lost in air combat this date. Ex-RAF serial AL267 was among the losses

40th and 41st claims
4.7.42/0627 and 1030
2 x LaGG-3s
own a/f: Ssowy
Engaged against 487 IAP and 826 IAP, details pending

42nd claim
46, 180, 191 and 436 IAPs of 235 IAD suffered 17 losses this month (Hurricane-equipped units)

46th, 47th , 48th, 49th, 50th and 51st claims
19.7.42/0700, 0735 and 0736
3 x LaGG-3s
(own airfield Taganrog)
19.7.42/1125 and 1520
2 x Hurricanes in the Rostov sector
I-16 “Rata”
Rostov sector
8 VA. Was one of these actually the Yak-1 of 821 IAP's Ivan Yakovlevich Avirkeev KIA this date? Or Ivan Andreevich Babushkin of 166 IAP KIA. A definite LaGG-3 loss was Nikolai Georgiyevich Bogatov of 182 IAP as was Ml.Lt. Pyotr Timofeyevich Tolmachev of the same unit KIA. 166 IAP also lost Kapitan Konstantin Kasyanovich Chetvertak KIA

52nd, 53rd, 54th, 55th and 56th victories
20.7.42/0707, 1316,1318, 1320 and 1600
5 x LaGG-3s
own a/f: Taganrog
8 VA. Day's losses include Serzhant Pavel Dmitrievich Shcherbakov of 518 IAP KIA
(Likely downed by either Barkhorn orZwernemann)

58th claim
235 IAD, eight losses in II./JG 52’s area of operations this day. Pilot details pending

65th claim
246 IAP. Lt. Vasily Makarovich Starodubtsev KIA (combat report stated that the pilot was seen to bale out)
66th claim
NE of Tuapse (PQ 95674) @ 2800m
These two claims likely against Ml. Lt. Aleksey Iosifovich Dogaev of 246 IAP, baled out safely (slight overclaiming). Note: All Barkhorn's victims reported to have baled out safely. (Also claimed by Werner Quast)

67th and 68th claims
Gunaiberg (PQ 95674) @ 2800m
Engagement was with 5 LaGG-3s of 246 IAP and 2 Yak-1s of 518 IAP, 236 IAD, 5 VA. These two claims were likely against the 518 IAP Yaks, which lost Lt. Sergey Mikhaylovich Kolesnikov (official report dates his loss 6.10.42) and St. Serzhant F.B. Varfolomeev

70th and 71st claim
25.10.42/1330 and 1335
2 x LaGGs
15km and 16km SE of Slepsowskaja (PQ 54573) @ 5500m
Likely 131 IAP. Aleksandr Alexeivich Solomin KIA and Yevgeny Mikhaylovich Shelogurov baled out KIA

73rd and 74th claims
26.10.42/1530 and 1532
2 x LaGGs
3km E of Aponka (PQ 47843) @ 500m and Eastern outskirts of Bataku Jurt (PQ 44811) @ 500m
Likely Aleksandr Yefimovich Fursikov of 131 IAP KIA

75th claim
Yak-7B (claimed as a "Yak-1")
2km N of Altebinal (PQ 95732) @ 1200m
Possibly Podpolkovnik Dmitriy Leontyevich Kalarash (in a LaGG-3) of 402 IAP, 236 IAD. Said to be KIA in a Taran or WIA and returned home, DOW. Also possibility of Kapt. Segey Sergeevich Shchirov of 518 IAP

79th claim
3.11.42/1445. LaGG-3
10km N of Tuapse (PQ 95741) @ 2000m.
One source says Yak-1s and LaGG-3s of 6 GIAP, 25 IAP and 62 IAP of VVS ChF involved. Believe this was from 269 IAP, two losses including pilot Simonovich baled out (Barkhorn's claim seen to bale out)

81st claim
LaGG-3 5km SE of Lasarewskoje (PQ 94162) @ 1000m.
246 IAP. Serzhant K K Pozdnyakov KIA and Serzhant A Mitrofanov baled out WIA (the other loss was due to Otto Foennekold)

103rd and 104th claims
9.1.43/1245 and 1250. Yak-1s
Kuberke railway station/Simovniki sector
236 IAP, 6 GIAD. Said to be Lev Shestakov and Mladshiy Leytenant Vasiliyev both bellylanded and managed to escape before Barkhorn strafed the wrecks

105th claim
Yak-1 Remontnaja (Ramostnaja?) (PQ 28852) @ 2500m.
Barkhorn is said to down Shestakov a second time in as many days…

106th claim
Pe-2 ("Yak-4")
5km NE of Korsertschy-Chomuty (PQ 08892) @ 5800m
30 ORAP-ChF or 366 ORAP, details pending

112th and 113th claims
12.2.43/0603 and 0610
2 x I-16s
Kabardinka sector. Legitimate victories: 236 IAD, 5 VA. Two losses

119th claim
7km SW of Kabardinka (PQ 75463) @ 3000m
269 IAP. Legitimate victories, two losses: 2742 of pilot Sokolov and serial unknown of pilot Malyshev (Quast downed the other)

122nd claim
Yak-1 (claimed as a “LaGG-3”)
8km NE of Mingrelskaja (PQ 86792) @ 4000m
812 IAP, 265 IAD, 3 IAK, 4 VA. Losses include Leytenant G V Kramarenko, Leytenant A G Kostenko and Starshina I D Kukushkin. Ml.Lt. Konstantin Konstantinovich Adamchuk also severely WIA this date (several other pilots claimed victories in the engagement)

126th claim
Lend-lease Spitfire
5km N of Cholmskaja (PQ 34 Ost 85161) @ 500m
57 GIAP. Serzhant Marchenko reported MIA, later returned safely

127th claim
East end of Krupsik (Krupeik?) (PQ 76864) @ 1500m
163 IAP lost at least one Yak-9 on 9th and 10th May. Pilot details pending

131st claim
8km E of Kijewskoje (PQ 76894) @ 2000m
Possibly 43 IAP .Ml.Lt. Alexei Nikolaevich Smirnov KIA
(Foennekold claimed during the day as well)

144th and 145th claims
5.8.43/1555 and 1602
2 x Yak-1s
Belgorod area
Possibly the engagement in which 427 IAP’s Serzhant Valentin Prokopovich Shalenko was KIA

165th and 166th claims
5.9.43/1055 and 1105
2 x La-5s (claimed as “LaGG-3s”)
Poltava-Konontajew sector
One of these was 41 GIAP, 2VA. Kpt. Nikolay Fedorovich Klepikov (HSU) KIA

167th, 168th and 169th claims
6.9.43/1415, 1425 and 1724
3 x Yak-1s
Taranovka sector
One of these claims likely pertains to Ml.Lt. Konstantin Ivanovich Vasiliev of 515 IAP KIA

170th claim
IL-2 Sturmovik
10km W of Andrejewka (PQ 60394) @ 100m
Possibly Ml.Lt. Alexei Abramovich Chalovan of 820 ShAP KIA
(at least two other possible claims)

175th and 176th claims
13.9.43/1325 and 1350
2 x Yak-1s
Taranovka – Belej Kolodes
Likely the engagement in which Ml.Lt. Nikolai Ivanovich Stepanchuk of 427 IAP, 4 IAK was KIA

178th and 179th claims
15.11.43/1007 and 1020
2 x Yak-1s
Taman – Kamysch Burun area
Overclaiming. No losses by either 4 VA or VVS ChF at this time or location

180th claim
P-39 Airacobra
E of Wassjurinskij/E of Bulganak (PQ 66832) @ 2000m
57 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Ivan Derbyshchev damaged, landed safely near home airfield

181st claim
P-39 Airacobra
W of Kerch (PQ 66591) @ 5000m
57 GIAP. St.Lt. Pavel Krasnenkov, badly damaged but returned to own airfield, pilot safe. Aircraft required major field repairs. Another possibility is 219139 of 66 IAP, Pavl Kamozin HSU, listed as damaged by Flak

182nd claim
LaGG-3 ("Yak-1")
E of Baksy (PQ 6664) @ 300m
249 IAP. Barkhorn's victim was most likely Kapitan Stepan Yakovlevich Vasilev (Finnish war veteran, 5 victories. Was to be awarded a HSU but due to being MIA was awarded OPW class 1 instead)

183rd claim
E of Baksy (PQ 66644) @ 4000m
42 GIAP. Aleksandr Bystritsку, damaged (hits on canopy), returned safely

184th claim
Into the sea, SE of Eltigen (PQ 66734) @ 4500m
42 GIAP. Most likely Daniil Kuzmenko, forcelanded 1.5 - 2km from home airfield
Lightly damaged were Kapitan Ivan Gorbunov, Lts Vasiliy Isaev, Mikhail Kossa and Ml.Lt. Nikolay Glyadyaev (other loss most likely inflicted by He111 gunners)

185th claim
P-39 Airacobra
Into the sea Kap Tusla area ( = Kossa Tusla?)(PQ 66811) @ 2000m
66 IAP. Ml.Lt. Ivan Borchenko. Damaged, out of action one day for repairs

186th claim
LaGG-3 ("Yak-1")
Kap Chroni area (PQ 66677) @ 2500m
Sachsenberg claimed as well
Two claims for No. 6531 of 249 IAP. Ml.Lt. Yakov Kholyavko forcelanded with stopped engine, pilot safe (also note that Zdenko Advic of 15. (Kroat)/JG 52 claimed two victories as well)

187th claim
LaGG-3 ("Yak-1")
E of Baksy (PQ 66643) @ 4500m
88 IAP. Ml.Lt. Fedor Kuntashev KIA

188th claim
P-39 Airacobra
Kertsch Harbour @ 5500m
66 IAP. Ml.Lt. Ivan Borchenko. Damaged, attributed to Flak

189th claim
E of Bulganak (PQ 66641) @ 2000m
42 GIAP Yaks and 88 IAP LaGG-3s. 42 GIAP lost No.03138 of Ml.Lt. Konstantin Morozik forcelanded WIA-DOW, 88 IAP lost Lt. Nikolay Sharonov baled out and returned the same day
(Batz claimed 2 Yak-1s in the same engagement)

190th claim
LaGG-3 ("Yak-1")
Kap Chroni area (PQ 66613) @ 500m
249 IAP, slight overclaiming, one loss: Lt. Viktor Rakov KIA
(Andreas Sterl also claimed)

191st claim
SE of Kertsch @ 5000m
229 IAD. 42 GIAP Yaks and 249 IAP LaGG-3s. 42 GIAP lost Ml.Lt. Aleksandr Masyuk failed to return whilst 249 IAP lost No.6286 of Ml.Lt. Pavel Rybkin KIA and Ml.Lt. Semen Kharlamov forcelanded safely
(Hans Ellendt and Wilhelm Batz accounted for the other two losses mentioned)

192nd and 193rd claims
26.11.43/1403 and 1405
2 x LaGG-3s ("Yak-1s")
S of Kertsch
249 IAP. Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Kulikov KIA, No.6510 of Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Zhuravlev baled out safely, posted as MIA but turned up post-war

194th claim
P-39 Airacobra
E of Sentinl (Lentini/Lentinl?) @ 2500m
16 GIAP. Lt. Veniamin Pavlovich Tsvetkov (8 victories plus 2 shared at this time) WIA (burnt face and left leg) and Ml. Lt. Nikolay Belozerov bellylanded safely with 7 hits in the engine
The other loss was Lipfert’s 60th victory

195th claim
LaGG-3 (Claimed as a "Yak-1")
Tobetschik area (PQ 66732) @ 1500m
No.6642 of 25 IAP. Ml.Lt. Aleksandr Butsgashev parachuted but MIA

196th claim
LaGG-3 (Claimed as a "Yak-1")
Kamysch-Burun area (PQ 66594) @ 1500m
25 IAP. Ml.Lt. Karlom Khvorov forcelanded

197th claim
LaGG-3 (Claimed as a "Yak-1")
Kamysch-Burun area (PQ 66594) @ 1500m
805 IAP. Ml.Lt. Aleksey Pushkin only lightly damaged, returned safely. Damage not even mentioned at Regimental level

198th claim
P-39 Airacobra
W of Kap Takyl @ 3500m
66 IAP. Ml.Lt. Ivan Zasypkin, damaged (three bullet holes in fuselage and one in wing, one wing-gun damaged) and repaired in the field

199th claim
LaGG-3 (Claimed as a "Yak-1")
Into the sea E off Eltigen (PQ 66734) @ 2000m
863 IAP. Lt. Nikolay Eliseev safe. Aileron damaged, repaired in the field plus Ml.Lt. Dmitriy Gontsov belly landed safely with hits in the radiator, right gas tank and stabiliser, pilot returned next day (attributed to Flak). Ml.Lt. Fedor Mikhalchenko damaged by Flak and possibly finished off by Barkhorn or Lipfert

200th claim
LaGG-3 (Claimed as a "Yak-1")
Western end of Kolonka @ 2500m
249 IAP. Mayor F N Kulyakin, Lt P M Batyrev and MlLt S I Karlamov all damaged in this engagement (Duettmann also claimed)

203rd claim
P-39 Airacobra (Claimed as a “Yak-1”)
S of Eltigen @ 500m
101 GIAP. Ml. Lt. Yakov Dementeev KIA

204th claim
IL-2 Sturmovik
E of Eltigen @ close to water's surface (Russian sources say into the sea, W of Taman)
No. 1870571 of 210 ShAP, 232 ShAD. Ml. Lt. Valentin Elush KIA

205th, 206th and 207th claims
2.12.43/1415, 1418 and 1423
3 x Yak-1s
Kamnisch Burum – Kap Takyl sector
In the afternoon, 88 IAP lost Serzhant M F Tsukanov and Serzhant G K Teplenko, whilst St.Lt. A P Lukhin was badly damaged and forcelanded back at base
Ellendt, Batz and Foennekold also claimed so this is clearly overclaiming

208th and 209th claims
4.12.43/0906 and 1409
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks mH
E of Eltigen
190 ShAP. One IL-2 only damaged in the course of the day

212th claim
IL-2 Sturmovik
S of Dshankoy (Ushankoj?) @ 100m
7 GShAP. Ml.Lt. I A Chernets and Ml.Serzh V P Umanets both WIA

213th claim
E of Kolonka @ close to water's surface
Overclaiming, no applicable losses

215th claim
P-39 Airacobra
Baksy area (PQ 6664) @ 4000m
Lipfert claimed as well
These were two claims for 57 GIAP. St. Lt. Enrique Flores

216th and 217th claims
28.12.43/0847 and 0853
LaGG-3 ("Yak-1") and IL-2 Sturmovik
Kerch – Dzhankoi
LaGG-3s of 88 IAP (1 loss) escorting IL-2s of 55 OKAE (no losses). St.Lt. Georgiy Ivanovich Naumov WIA (6 personal + 3 shared kills), died 31.12.43 of gangrene after amputation of both hands

218th and 219th claims
28.12.43/1020 and 1023
2 x LaGG-3s (claimed as "Yak-1s")
Kap Chroni sector 790 IAP. Ml.Lt. Nikolai Georgievich Moskalev (3 personal + 2 shared kills) baled out but KIA, came down into icy water 1km E of Osoviny - One of these is an overclaim

220th claim
Kertsch harbour basin @ 4500m
42 GIAP. Kapitan Nikolai Pechony (17 personal + 3 shared kills) belly landed WIA in face and arm

221st claim
Yak-1 ("P-39 Airacobra")
N of Baksy (Laksig) @ 4500m
66 IAP. Ml.Lt. Aleksandr Andrievskii safe

222nd claim
Kertsch harbour basin @ 3500m
42 GIAP. St.Lt. Akhmet-khan Talovich Kankoshev (14 kills), HSU, KIA

223rd 224th, 225th and 226th claims
29.12.43/0938, 1335, 1345 and 1348
P-39, Yak-9 and 2 x Yak-1s
Katerles, Appassnaja, Bulganak and Dshankoy sectors
229 IAD. Summary of the day’s losses: four LaGG-3s with three pilots lost, plus four more damaged, other types account for a total of 6 losses all up.
Ewald, Haas and Bucheit also claimed, making 7 claims for 6 applicable losses. All other claims are accounted for.

227th claim
Northern edge of Bulganak @ 2000m
Day's only other fighter losses in the area of Bulganak were one aircraft each from 66 IAP and 249 IAP damaged (see next claim)

228th claim
E of Bulganak @ 500m
790 IAP. Ml.Lt. Sergei Ivanovich Buryak (AE CO, 5 victories)

229th claim
Into the sea, E of Kerch/Bagerovo (Crimea) (PQ 66654) @ 1700m
Likely249 IAP. Ml. Lt. A V Nikolaev KIA

230th, 231st and 232nd claims
1.1.44/1308, 1309 and 1310
3 x Pe-2s
Bagerovo, Kap Tarchan, Kap Chroni
40 PBAP, VVS ChF. One total loss, crew all KIA and one bellylanded. Attributed to Flak by Soviet sources

235th claim
P-39 Airacobra
Kertsch area (PQ 66643) @ 4000m
57 GIAP. St. Serzhant A S Krivonos baled out but MIA

239th claim
Kap Tarchan (PQ 66534) @ 500m
863 IAP. Lt. Nikolai Andreyevich Eliseev. WIA in the leg, out of combat for a month

248th claim
ENE of Bulganak (PQ 66641) @ 3000m
Possibly 48 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Yury Sergeevich Rubtsov MIA

249th claim
Yak-1 25km SE of Rusa (PQ 66473) @ 2500m
Was this No.22147 of 812 IAP? Ml.Lt. Sergey Semenovich Zuyev KIA

250th claim
Mayak-Bakny area (PQ 66614) @ 2000m
42 GIAP and 249 IAP, 229 IAD, 4 VA and (most likely opponent) 979 IAP, 230 ShAD. Overclaiming, no losses

251st claim
PQ 4641 @ 7000m
366 ORAP or 30 ORAP-ChF. Details pending

267th Claim
IL-2 Sturmovik mH
Balaklava area or 10km S of Sevastopol (PQ 35473) @ 600m
47 ShAP. Losses were: Lt. N N Kuzmenko & M Serzhant G Mochalov, ditched near Belobek; Mladshiy Leytenant A N Mikhailenko & Serzhant N P Zhuvagin downed 5km from Lyubimovki plus ml. Lieutenant E.G.Udaltsov bellylanded back at base with shot-out hydraulics (two claims by Krah)

268th and 269th claims
30.5.44/1655 and 1705
2 x P-39 Airacobras
10km S of Tudora (PQ 78643)
Were these also from 129 GIAP, 205 IAD, 7 IAK? 153 IAP in action this day as well. Engaged against Fw190s without suffering any losses. 438 IAP lost Alexey Panfilovich Skripnikov KIA

270th and 271st claims
31.5.44/0538 and 0545
2 x P-39 Airacobras
Husi/Iasi sector
On the basis of timing, one of these may have been Kpt. Pawel K. Eryomin of 16 GIAP (said to have been downed near Zacharka in combat with Fw190, 0630ST)

280th claim
Jaszbereny area (PQ 98478) @ 2000m
3429214/"34" of 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Agdantsev safe

281st claim
20km SW of Gyoergyoes (Gyongyos?) PQ 98452
39214932/"32" of 192 IAP, 279 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt. Ol'nev WIA

282nd claim
40km ENE of Budapest (PQ 98615) @ 1500m
Overclaiming, no permanent La-5 loss this date

283rd claim
Yak-1B ("Yak-3")
30km SW of Gyoergyoes (Gyongyos?) PQ 98622 @ 3500m
37191 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Petrovich Isupov bailed out and returned on 19.11.44

293rd and 294th claims
2x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Likely legitimate victories: 17 VA lost 13 IL-2s this date

295th and 296th claims
2x Yak-9
17 VA lost 8 Yak-9s and 1 Yak-1B (No. 22167) this date

297th, 298th and 299th claims
3 x La-5s
17 VA lost 1 La-5F and 3 La-5FN this date

300th claim
17 VA lost 1 Yak-1B, 2 Yak-9D and 1 Yak-9T this date

301st claim
Possibly an aircraft of 31 IAP or 116 IAP
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Old 26th December 2019, 05:19
leonventer leonventer is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
Here's a big update on Barkhorn ...
Wow, the word "big" was an understatement! Excellent info, Nick -- much appreciated.

One comment:
Earlier versions of your Barkhorn list had this entry for his 16th claim:
"27.5.42/1528, Pe-2, NE of Petrovskaya @ 100m. 223 BAD, 2 VA. Losses believed to be in excess of 16 crews. Includes Divison CO Podpolkovnik I K Kosenko and Polkovnik Yuri N Gorbko HSU plus Lt. Ivan Sirko all KIA. 24 BBAP (Gorbko's unit) alone lost 6 Pe-2s"
Since it's now absent, I take it that you've since concluded that Barkhorn wasn't involved in this action?

Thanks again for your valued efforts,
Leon Venter
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Old 26th December 2019, 05:30
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Hi Leon,

Unfortunately, I must confess: the omission was an error on my part when I reworked the listing to include the new info.

Sincere thanks for pointing it out.

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Old 29th December 2019, 01:37
leonventer leonventer is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
Unfortunately, I must confess: the omission was an error on my part when I reworked the listing to include the new info.

Sincere thanks for pointing it out.
No problem -- thanks for the clarification.

Most of all, thanks very much for your excellent research, and for your generosity in sharing it.

Happy New Decade to all,
Leon Venter
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Old 1st January 2020, 11:10
Edward L. Hsiao Edward L. Hsiao is offline
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Post Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Heinz Marquardt of JG-51 was among the last German aces to reach 100 air to air kills in the middle of April of 1945. His final score was 121.

Edward L. Hsiao
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Old 3rd January 2020, 08:35
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Over 100 air to air kills (The 100 Club)

Hi Guys

Am back from holiday.

Thought my "100" list might provoke some discussion. I will go through each reply and try to explain any queries away.

Firstly regarding Thyben, no revision, I just had a senior moment and missed listing him, everything indicates that he made 157 confirmed claims.

With Marquardt he was very, very active in April 1945, but lost his last flugbuch, a lot has been written about his last claims, but the only really reliable data comes from Elmar Aremsmeyer's own flugbuch where he lists claims of pilots he was witnessing claims to, foremost amongst these was Marquardt, Arensmeyer's information gives aircraft type and claim number for these pilots, also as they flew together it's possible to workout an approximate time from the flugbuch flight time entry.

Regarding my own totals compared to those generally accepted, I say how are they generally accepted, mine use an almost faultless mass of Luftwaffe claims, flugbucher and unit claims boards. However I list claims facts, not in reality were actual shoot-downs. The Luftwaffe were no less reliable than other Nations, in fact not back amongst them, just an elite few wanting fame, glory and's human nature.

With Gerhard Barkhorn and his claims, personally it would appear he may have had some claims not actually crash, but It looks more like he was mistaken rather than deliberate over-claiming. In life as a leader he was a disciplinarian, for example sometimes a staffel would make a claim that could not be assigned to any one individual......a Staffel claim, one staff pilot worked-out that he could later do the paperwork to claim these.....why let them go to waste, Barkhorn discovered the fraudulent claims and put a stop to it. I wouldn't say that that makes him perfect, I have worked with people who attack others to cover their own incompetence, but I do not believe this is the case with Barkhorn. The research into his claims would suggest he was honest, though with the last few it's difficult to understand how a check can be made as all we have are dates and types, most 1945 claims details are not established as not mikrofilms, so flugbucher are the only really form of establishing claims...….most are missing or lost forever. Sad thing is that Barkhorn regarded his Schwerter as a failure i.e no Brillianten, same goes for Rall, if the claims against Graf/Gollob/Nowotny and Hartmann are perfectly true, then both Rall and Barkhorn were cheated of their rightful Brillianten, so I guess we could say that both were ambitious in some respects.

Kind Regards

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