Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8th April 2019, 20:10
BartekPL BartekPL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 9
BartekPL is on a distinguished road
Me 262 job, west of Hamburg, 9th April 1945.

Hello,
According to "Jagdgeschwader 7 'Nowotny'. Aviation Elite Units 29'' by Robert Forsyth, on 9th April 1945, 29 Me 262s from JG 7 encountered 57 Lancasters of No 5 Group on their way to bomb oil storage and U-Boats pens in Hamburg. They claimed downing 4 Lancasters and one P-47. Lancasters were protected by Polish 306th, 309th and 315th squadrons equipped with Mustangs IIIs, not P-47s, although I am aware that this P-47 didn't have to be part of the escort. None of Polish planes were lost, while Poles claimed shooting down 4 Me 262s and damaging two more. What book sadly didn't mention, are losses of JG 7 on this day, when book usually provides how many Me 262s were lost, in case of this day, the book only provides submit of amount of Me 262s in JG 7 elements, making it hard to estimate any losses. Nevertheless, claims made by Polish pilots during this clash are officially said to be confirmed. Below are their reports about this fight, 3 from 309th squadron, which scored 3 Me 262s shoot down and 1 damaged, and one from 306th which is credited with one Me 262 shot down by the squadron leader. 315th squadron was protecting 306th and 309th from above during this encounter. Below are Polish after flight reports and quotes from real documents.

"S/L. Zulikowski. 306 Squadron.
On the way back from the target at approximately 1800 hrs I heard on the R/T. warning of approaching ME 262s. One minute later I saw a ME 262 approx. 2,000-3,000 feet below amongst the bombers, I dived towards this ME 262 which flew up the bombers stream, turned and flew back, flying then head-on to the bombers. I fired at this ME 262 from approx. 200 yards 90-60 degrees deflection and the E/A dived away. Then I saw three ME 262s attacking the bombers from the rear. As I turned back I saw two bombers on fire. These three ME 262s turned to port, diving slightly. I chose the nearest E/A firing several bursts from approx. 800 yards, observing strikes on the fuselage. I claim one ME 262 destroyed.
(Signed) S/L. Zulikowski. 306 Squadron."

http://www.polishairforce.pl/_meldun...945_04_09.html


"W/O Murkowski, 309 Squadron.
I was Section Leader in Blue Section flying at 19,000 feet. As we met the second formation of Bombers returning from the Target, the Squadron turned to the left, and I then saw below, flying at approximately 4,000 feet, about 8 ME 262s. I instantly dropped my tanks, and dived to attack the Enemy aircraft, which were climbing to attack the Bombers which were spread out in bad formation, at the same time calling out the rest of the Squadron. I attacked thenearest E/A, who did not see me until I was withing range of 600 yards. When the Enemy aircraft sighted me he made a steep turn to the left. I opened fire and fired from 90/40 degrees, and as I finished firing I saw his port wing had fallen off, the enemy aircraft wento into a spin and dropped like a stone to the ground. I pulled up and turned to the Bombers. I then saw another ME 262 at which I fired at a range of 600 yards, I saw strikes on his rear fuselage and tail, but he still continued flying and dived away. I again turned and climbed to the Bombers and saw two more E/A. I saw F/Lt. Mencel fire at one, and I attacked the other with a short burst without success. I saw the two ME 262s, which F/Lt. Mencel had attacked go straight down at an angle of about 60 degrees and crash on the ground with a big explosion. On the way back from the target I escorted a lone Bomber R/ as far as the Dutch Coast. I claim 1 ME 262 destroyed, and 1 ME 262 damaged.
(Signed) W/O. Murkowski."

http://www.polishairforce.pl/_meldun...945_04_09.html


"F/Lt. Mencel, 309 Squadron.
I was leading yellow section escorting Lancs. when I saw on the right side of the bombers 2,000 feet above, one ME 262 attacking from behind and below port side of the bombers. I went down across bomber formation and attacked E/A. He did a deep turn to the left and started to dive. I was already on his tail about 600 yards behind. I opened fire and followed him from 16,000 feet to 6,000 ft. continuing firing. I saw black smoke from the ME 262, which turned over on its back and went straight down. W/O Murkowski who was behind me saw the E/A hitting the ground and exploding. I claim one ME 262 destroyed.
(Signed) F/Lt. Mencel. 309 Squadron."



http://www.polishairforce.pl/_meldun...945_04_09.html


"F/Lt. Gorzula, 309 Squadron.
I was leading Blue Section of 3 Mustangs escorting Lancasters. Soon after the Bombers left the Target I heard the Bomber leader calling on R/T "Som Jet jobs attacking us", and also at the same time Bombers were firing Green very lights. Immediately I broke away and took my Section close to Bombers, which were already attacked by two E/A without results. I could not attack the first two as they were too fast, and went right through the Bomber stream; two minutes later there were two more ME 262s approximately 1,000 yards apart. They attacked the middle of the Bombers leading formation, and one of the Bombers was shot down. At that time I was on the left side of the Bombers at 18,000 feet. Those two ME 262s after shooting down 1 Lancaster turned 90 degrees to port in a gentle dive. Therefore I was in a suitable position to catch the first one. I opened fire from 450 yards 45 degrees. I gave three bursts and saw strikes on the cockpit, and black smoke coming from the plane. He slowed down, I pulled up and saw that E/A spinning down and part of his tail was falling off. Sgt. Kulecki, my No. 2 saw the ME 262 which I attacked spinning and his wings falling off. Sgt. Bobrowski from 306 Squadron saw the same ME 262 first spinning then emitting black smoe and blow to pieces. I claim 1 ME 262 destroyed.
(Signed) F/Lt. Gorzula."



http://www.polishairforce.pl/_meldun...945_04_09.html


"W/O Murkowski 1 ME 262 Destroyed 1 ME 262 Damaged. Rounds fired 960.
F/Lt. Gorzula 1 ME 262 Destroyed. Rounds fired 240.
F/Lt. Mencel. 1 ME 262 Destroyed. Rounds fired 680.
S/Ldr. Zulikowski 1 ME 262. Destroyed. Rounds fired 550.
CINE-CAMERA EXPOSED.
G.G.S. IN USE."


Again, I would like to ask whether there is any confirmation of these claims from the German side, from what I learned so far, it is possible that none Me 262 was lost, but at the same time, German documents might lack some data from this period.

Best regards
Bartłomiej

Last edited by BartekPL; 8th April 2019 at 20:54.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 9th April 2019, 11:25
RodM RodM is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Deep South of New Zealand
Posts: 428
RodM is on a distinguished road
Re: Me 262 job, west of Hamburg, 9th April 1945.

Hi Bartłomiej,

an OKL FüSt Ic Evening Report states:

Against heavy bomber incursion over Hamburg:

2. Jagddivision: 15 Me 262 were operational, claiming 5 enemy aircraft destroyed for certain and 3 probables. No German aircraft lost.

1. Jagddivision: 10 Me 262s were operational. No enemy aircraft shot down and no German aircraft lost.

Cheers

Rod
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 9th April 2019, 12:15
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 9,002
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Me 262 job, west of Hamburg, 9th April 1945.

The only one I can see at a glance is an ac from 3./JG 7 flown by Lt Hans-Dieter Weihs which was slightly damaged
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 9th April 2019, 13:58
Karoband Karoband is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 420
Karoband is on a distinguished road
Re: Me 262 job, west of Hamburg, 9th April 1945.

Hello Bartlomiej,

For what it is worth, from Foreman & Harvey, The Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary, (1995 edition), p. 236:

"One Me 262 from 3./JG 7 is known to have been lost, Unteroffizier Koehler perishing, but no details are known. Leutnant 'Hadi' Weihs of 3./JG 7 had scrambled from Oranienburg and met Mustangs south of Berlin. His own aircraft was damaged and he force-landed at the factory airfield at Dessau with a damaged undercarriage."

I note that one of the claimants of a Lancaster, Uffz. Gunther Engler, was from 3./JG 7.

best regards,

Jim

Last edited by Karoband; 9th April 2019 at 16:04.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 9th April 2019, 16:43
Rottler Rottler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ludwigshafen, Germany
Posts: 823
Rottler is on a distinguished road
Re: Me 262 job, west of Hamburg, 9th April 1945.

Hello Bartłomiej,

according to the JG 7 chronicle of Manfred Boehme (1983) the four Lancaster claimants were Oblt Franz Schall, Gefr Herbert Müller, Lt Rudolf Zingler and Uffz Günther Engler. The Thunderbolt was claimed by Lt Fritz R G Müller.

Regards
Leo
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19th April 2019, 19:51
BartekPL BartekPL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 9
BartekPL is on a distinguished road
Hello everyone,
Thank you all for your replies, so, to sum up - Poles (in the best case) could have shoot down one Me 262 and damage another one or two, unless some new information/documents will pop-up or mentioned in reports cine cameras exist and can reveal something. I have one more question though, was 3./JG 7 operating Me 262 A-1a model only?

Best regards
Bartłomiej
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Early Repatriation of POWs - April 1945 Buffnut453 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 11th May 2012 14:04
Documentation of 2000HP Bf 109s of 1945 Kurfürst Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 10th September 2009 12:15
Ofw Heinz Arnold's last sortie 16 or 17 April 1945? Roger Gaemperle Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 13 29th July 2009 09:24
Russian losses on Berlin Battle April 1945 Eric Larger Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 8th April 2006 14:50


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net