Bomber Aces

[Jim Oxley]

Read any book on the history of RAF Bomber Command or the Luftwaffe's Kampfgerschwader and it will be as much about the aircrews as it is about the missions, campaigns, results etc.

One aspect that is evident in Bomber Command histories are the number of crew that flew two or more tours. Up until mid 1941 RAF Bomber Command did not have a set policy of rotation. Crews often flew until the Station Commander decided that a particular crew deserved transfer to an OTU. Group Commanders also set there own mission limits. For example in No.2 Group A.V.M. Stevenson set the mission total at 45. For No.5 Group it was set at 35. After 1941 a 'tour' was officially set at 30 missions, or 200 flying hours. Anything over that was to be by volunteer only.Even with this limit set many crew fly more than the one tour. Potential 'pathfinders' for example had to complete a normal tour before even being considered for No.8 Group. Within the confines of the Bomber Command personnel there was an unofficial 'ace' status, applied to any pilot or crew member who flew more than two tours. Almost two thousand individuals met that criteria, with a small very select group even exceeding the 100 mission mark eg Cheshire, Palmer, Harrison, Gibson, Tait, Martin, Staton and Donaldson; to name just a few.

Within the Kampfgerschwader things were quite different. Although there was a rotation system in place, it was very rudimentary and always resulted in a pilot/crew returning to combat after a short period. So crews literally flew till they dropped. The only sure way to avoid that fate was to land a desk job, which very few managed to do. Consequently mission totals amongst the Kampfgerschwader were extremely high (if they lived long enough), 100-200 mission not being at all uncommon. Yet even within that organisation the bomber pilots had their own 'ace' criteria. Those pilots who reached the amazing total of 250 missions or more. Some notable pilots in this category were: Batcher (682), Muller (680), Antrup (500), Hogeback (486), Helbig (480), Wittmann (467), Schafer (420), Roewar (305), Kindler (230).

In stark contrast are the histories that deal with the US 8th and 9th Air Force Bomber Commands. Almost invariably the emphasis is on the organisation, rarely on the individual. And when it does focus on an individual it is usually a person of significant rank. Consequently there is almost no information available on pilots/crew that flew more than one tour in the European Theatre. As such no personalities come to mind that can rank as 'bomber aces' comparable to the RAF and Luftwaffe.

[Smudger Smith]

Dear Jim,



Read with interest your post, however I feel that the term ‘ace’ is inappropriate when describing experienced Bomber Command aircrew.



The majority of two or three tour airman where unknowns, a select few became war-time household names, the likes of Gibson, Cheshire, etc many more ordinary aircrews continued to operated within their respected groups with little or no recognition other from those they served with. An example is that of Wing Commander Peter Francis Dunham RAFVR. This officer began his first tour in 1940 as an airgunner, his second tour as an Observer his third as a pilot, he was killed while c/o of No.90 Squadron. I for one would not consider this extremely brave and courage’s officer an ‘ace’. I personally feel the term ‘ace’ is better suited when describing the Fighter boy’s,


Cheers

Smudger

[Jim Oxley]

Fair enough, I'll accept that. Dunham is indeed an excellent example of a crew member doing multiple tours. And he would have been included as one of the couple of thousand that I referred to above.

I find it really odd though that it wasn't a practice that the Americans were keen to emulate. They seemed to have had a totally different mind set to the war. And I'm wondering what the contributing factors may have been.

Was it...
a) partly due to the excessive manpower that the Americans poccessed, negating the need for multiply tours
b) perhaps coming late to the War, and fighting it many thousands of miles from their own land, they didn't quite have the committment that existed in both the British and German air forces
c) or was it that they had a more workman like approach to the war i.e. do the job and go home.

I find the whole thing very interesting.

[jhor99]

On July 5 1943, 28 B17s from the 99th Bomb Group, had as it's target Gerbini airfield, pre Sicily invasion. They destroyed about 20 aircraft on the ground, and they were attacked by over 100 enemy fighters, 3 of 6 B17s in my sqdn were shot down, 49 enemy fighters were shot down, plus several probables. One waist gunner Sgt was credited with shooting down 7 enemy planes. At a ceremony several days later, 2 Generals awarded him some medals, promoted him to 2nd Lt, shlpped him out and declared him an ace.

[Smudger Smith]

Jules,I find it un-believable that even today the over claiming of American gunners is still believed and pumped out. We are all aware of the tremendous job they did, but if the claims were anything near correct the US gunners would have single-handedly destroyed the German day fighter arm.Don’t believe a word of it personally. !PS : Before all the Flak, I AM NOT ANTI AMERICAN. !!!!

[Jon]

I must agree with Smudger on this and like him want to say i am not Anti American and do appreciate all they did in the war, but far too much evidence shows that their was massive overclaiming by US gunners, obviously due to many gunners shooting at a single fighter and if it was hit they all claimed it, also i assume any erratic flying to escape by the Luftwaffe would be classed as "shot down" and this together with any fighter diving hard and fast for home after a firing pass would also be another kill !!!
You simply can't argue with facts and it would be nice to see the real Luftwaffe losses for this raid in particular and, i would place a safe bet that they lost less than 7 fighters to gunners during the whole attack.